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Re: Why is Sulfuras better for other classes than for warrio

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:02 pm
by smilkovpetko
Aethelwulf wrote:There are a couple of things you are neglecting. SoR gets 1.15x damage from talents, Flurry Axe typically has a 10% proc rate of an extra hit, and depending on mechanics SoR might be applying invisible hits (it did this during vanilla) which double up your chances to obtain Flurry and HoJ procs. Going with the 200 spelldmg for 20+20(flat) damage, you get 40 * 1.15 (imp SoR) = 46*1.1 (sanctity) = 50.6 * 40 = 2024 * 1.1 (flurry procs) = 2226.4 * 1.02 (HoJ) = 2270.928 damage over one minute. (If we have invisible hit mechanics, then it's 2024 * 1.2 * 1.04 = 2525.952 damage.) If we go for 200 spell damage and add another 140 because of a judgement of the crusader, then we get 3065,7528 damage not counting judgement of righteousness damage, and assuming no invisible hits.

You also appear to be squeezing 8 SoC procs into a 7 PPM and the SoC coefficient is only 20% for non-holy spell damage and I don't know why you're adding fireballs (and giving them a Sanctity multiplier to boot). I have no idea if you're including judgement of command damage or not either. We can do total DPS calculations, but that math will look different.

Anyway, the higher the spell damage goes, the more the math favors Flurry Axe.


Going with the 200 spelldmg for 20+20(flat) damage, you get 40 * 1.15 (imp SoR)


First of all Improved Seal of Righteousness is flat 15% of SoR (without SP) and does not scale with SP until TBC.

Second since you add Judge of the Crusade will increase you only 14 dmg per swing = 560 dmg extra vs 294 dmg .

This will still Result into 3108 + 294 = 3402 damage Hands with SoC vs 3262 damage Flurry + HoJ with SoR

Now let assume we have 30% Crit for SoC = 3402 = 4442 Damage
Now let assume we have 2000 AP for SoC = 150 + 10% aura = 165 + 30% crit + 214 Damage

4442 + 214 = 4656 damage vs Flurry Axe that will produce 3402 damage maximum

And don't forget currently SoC scale 1 from Holy that will give 980 damage to SoC via jotc instead 294

Re: Why is Sulfuras better for other classes than for warrio

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:23 pm
by Aethelwulf
Huh, that would make improved SoR astoundingly useless. Your math still does not add up, by the way, given the 8 procs when it's 7 PPM and adding Sulfuras procs and the 100% holy on SoC (should be 29% holy, 20% non-holy). I thought we were just comparing holy damage for whatever reason. If we're comparing spell damage then you shouldn't be applying Sanctity to the fireballs anyway.

Dr. Doom wrote:
Aethelwulf wrote:... depending on mechanics SoR might be applying invisible hits (it did this during vanilla) which double up your chances to obtain Flurry and HoJ procs. .


That part should be like this indeed, but it is bugged in the server.
I believe theo wrote on it:
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=3614

To be honest, the mechanics of Flurry Axe + HoJ interactions get much heavier with invisible hits. Both of these items can already proc off of each other, but Flurry Axe could also proc off of its own SoR hit (and HoJ's SoR hit), so there is an unusually high chance of multihit chains here for 2 or more bonus attacks off of one white attack.

Re: Why is Sulfuras better for other classes than for warrio

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:26 pm
by smilkovpetko
Aethelwulf wrote:Huh, that would make improved SoR astoundingly useless. Your math still does not add up, by the way, given the 8 procs and fireballs and the 100% holy on SoC (should be 29% holy, 20% non-holy). I thought we were just comparing holy damage for whatever reason.

Dr. Doom wrote:
Aethelwulf wrote:... depending on mechanics SoR might be applying invisible hits (it did this during vanilla) which double up your chances to obtain Flurry and HoJ procs. .


That part should be like this indeed, but it is bugged in the server.
I believe theo wrote on it:
https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=3614

To be honest, the mechanics of Flurry Axe + HoJ interactions get much heavier with invisible hits. Both of these items can already proc off of each other, but Flurry Axe could also proc off of its own SoR hit (and HoJ's SoR hit), so there is an unusually high chance of multihit chains here for 2 or more bonus attacks off of one white attack.


Well i made 1 mistake , that was the mistake for not giving sources as evidence where many trolls will shoot on me.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/patch-notes/2-1-0
Patch 2.1.0
Improved Seal of Righteousness: The percentage increase in damage from this talent is now applied after all bonuses from items and effects which increase your spell damage.

Here is the evidence for my claim ^ it is TBC only .

Re: Why is Sulfuras better for other classes than for warrio

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:41 pm
by stimz
Aethelwulf wrote:...



smilkov is my favorite person to argue with on the forums. he's like a wingman making your point for you.

Re: Why is Sulfuras better for other classes than for warrio

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:57 pm
by Aethelwulf
Theloras wrote:Ravager? LOL, when ravager swings, no Seals or weapon procs are triggered

You've been playing on private servers too long, I guess. They are applied. In fact, in vanilla, when Seal of Command procs, the entire AoE swing will get bonus SoC damage. It's part of what makes Ravager a good AoE weapon for Paladins.

Re: Why is Sulfuras better for other classes than for warrio

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:11 pm
by Dr. Doom
Hmm, I tried to research this.
Did find something: http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fo ... 2175531033

May 06 2005 at 6:17 AM
demonssword
22 posts

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=6687 is a great weapon i think... and its really easy to get. All you need to do is work your way passed a few of the quilboars and stuff and his one of the quickest subbosses to find in the place and drops that. And i continued to use that axe till i bought a Grim Reaper http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=13054 then later moved onto Mograine's Might http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=7723 and Ravager http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=7717 of which Ravager is still the best weapon in the world to me at lv 48 as its special attack is brutal when combined with seal of command as it almost allways gets the special hit on it aswell.

Re: Why is Sulfuras better for other classes than for warrio

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:33 pm
by Aethelwulf
I can explain the mechanics of a SoC Ravager swing. Normally procs are handled after attack damage, but SoC is an exception because it can't be calculated that way. This is because the server isn't in the habit of storing the attack damage numbers just in case SoC happens to proc. It's a waste of system resources. Instead, SoC procs in two parts. First it procs on a successful hit (before attack damage), and if it successfully procs, the server then tells itself that attack damage numbers must be remembered and sets a guaranteed SoC proc after attack damage (since the SoC proc chance was already handled before attack damage but the SoC damage itself needs to be handled after attack damage). So now the attack damage happens, procs the SoC blow like a normal proc, then SoC blow itself finally happens, does its SoC damage, and tells the server to remove the SoC proc on the attack damage so that future hits are handled normally (without wasting resources on remembering attack damage numbers) unless of course SoC procs on hit all over again.

However, when you have Bladestorm (Ravager proc), all hits are done simultaneously, so if you hit 5 mobs, instead of hit confirmed->attack damage->procs done 5 times over, you have 5x hits confirmed -> 5x attack damage -> 5x procs. This means that you have five chances to activate SoC, and once SoC is active, every single instance of attack damage will proc that guaranteed SoC blow - because the guaranteed proc isn't deactivated until a SoC proc finishes (but that only affects future attack damage, it does nothing about all the SoC blows already set to happen), so you just get a SoC blow on all 5 hits (well, the hits aren't fully synchronized so it's possible that SoC procs on the last hit while the first attack has already gone through giving you SoC on 4 hits instead of all 5). A bit confusing but the short end of it is that Ravager will give a chance to trigger SoC for every single enemy you attack and if it triggers, it will apply SoC to all enemies. So you're frequently going to see SoC hit everything (the more enemies you hit, the more likely you are to get that SoC damage).

You might be wondering what happens if SoC procs two or more times from a single Bladestorm AoE swing, but SoC is either "on" or "off" so you're still only going to see SoC hit everything once.

This behavior is also the source of seal twisting with Seal of Command since you could actually tell when SoC procs before the attack damage is applied and then cast a different Seal (which procs on attack damage) in the brief window between the proc starting up and the attack connecting and collect both seals on the blow. Since a lot of seals worked by applying an invisible hit in vanilla, this also gave you double the opportunity to proc on that attack (so if you twisted SoR on the SoC you got 2x SoR hits with your SoC hit). Now you might think that seal-twisting SoR on a SoC with a Ravager proc would be a great idea to do lots of damage, and it would be, except for the fact that the Bladestorm proc is a channeled ability, so you will lose Bladestorm if you cast anything.

Anyway the verdict is that under vanilla you should use a Ravager with a Crusader enchant and run Seal of Command.

Re: Why is Sulfuras better for other classes than for warrio

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:58 am
by Theloras
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/2223/WM1E0X.jpg

As I said before, doesn't proc Seals cause they nerfed it on Mangos due to this.

It used to on Peenix for a while but they nerfed it there as well.

Re: Why is Sulfuras better for other classes than for warrio

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:03 am
by Aethelwulf
Addendum: A bit more research indicated that they stealth nerfed seal procs from working with Ravager sometime during 1.10 or 1.11. This was likely done because of the aforementioned AoE SoC and because the invisible hits from seal procs fueled more Ravager procs for a very long-lasting Bladestorm.