Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate...

Share your secret tips about your favorite class here !

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by smilkovpetko » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:04 pm

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=16499

(4) AOE Threat: Healing, Buffing, Power Gain

Each point of healing causes 0.5 threat, forgetting threat modifiers. Overhealing doesnt cause threat. Most buff spells cast on friendly players generate a small amount of threat.


(D) Paladin
Paladins receive 50% threat from healing compared to other healers. This is designed to stop them tanking instances by healing everything in sight. As a side affect, this gives them a decent advantage over other healers where healing threat is an issue.


This is the reason why Paladins cause too much threat in server , i have already experimenting this with theloras , in fact paladin's heal should cause 0.25 threat , where in Nostalrius they cause 0.5 threat same as any other healer.

And yes Judgement of Light also produce and should produce threats too according to healing rules , but sadly due to "bugged" threat here in Nostalrius it make astronomical threats .
/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
User avatar
smilkovpetko
Legionnaire
Legionnaire
 

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by Theloras » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:20 pm

Wargly13 wrote:Sorry but Judgement of light not generating threat and your set is healing only party as it says. +Link you gave is a spell which didnt exist in vanilla actually. If you think that you can generate enough threat then tank whole MC as Paladin and post video.


Duki and I tested healing vs threat here on Nostalrius and it's bugged as fuck. All healing is adding threat including overhealing.

Judgement of Light does in fact do threat - it wasn't until patch 3.0.8 that Blizzard removed threat from its healing:

Ghost crawler - Blue Poster
#39 - 2008/12/17 05:18:29 PM
I realize this thread is a month old, but I couldn't find a more recent discussion of the issue.

One of the changes in 3.0.8 that we may or may not have announced is that we changed Judgment of Light to do no threat in order to fix some of this seemingly random behavior. We aren't trying to nerf Prot paladin threat overall with this change.

The topic came up again recently when Protadin OTs were accidentally pulling off the MT with huge threat spikes while tanking adds etc.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1235 ... s-my-raid/
Theloras
Knight-Lieutenant
Knight-Lieutenant
 

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by zmandude24 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:04 pm

To summarize the big picture, warriors are the better option for everything except for aoe threat where paladins DESTROY them. Yes paladins can tank many of the fights if the raid is creative with the mechanics, but that limits the strategies the raid can use. However, there are 3 major problems that a paladin tank faces in vanilla:
  1. Not having a Taunt: This makes them unviable for the fights that you need a taunt for.
  2. They will go oom if they don't use low ranks and seal of wisdom: In order to kill warriors in single target threat, you will need to use the higher ranks and you will go oom quickly. So that means that warriors will do more threat in the long run.
  3. There is not much gear for them to tank in raids: The main source of tank gear in vanilla is the tier gear and paladins don't have any tanking tier gear. So their only option is to use the non-tier epic pieces which are scarce and many times certain slots aren't in certain tiers.
I'm not saying the tankadins are bad players, their class is just simply broken and not that good in the raids. They fix these 3 issues in TBC and paladin tanks are seen as a necessity in TBC. Still, paladin tanks look like a ton of fun to use for powergrinding instances with an overgeared group due to the ability to pull like a madman without having to worry about threat.
zmandude24
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by smilkovpetko » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:18 pm

zmandude24 wrote:To summarize the big picture, warriors are the better option for everything except for aoe threat where paladins DESTROY them. Yes paladins can tank many of the fights if the raid is creative with the mechanics, but that limits the strategies the raid can use. However, there are 3 major problems that a paladin tank faces in vanilla:


warriors are the better option for everything except for aoe threat where paladins DESTROY them.


AoE or Single Target threats no matter what - paladin using Spell damage weapon will turn warrior into Dust .

Yes paladins can tank many of the fights if the raid is creative with the mechanics, but that limits the strategies the raid can use.


Wowwiki mechanic = nothing is limited there , it is original tactic and work as intend , nothing is limited and in fact it gives raid more options (if main tank die you have backup tank to take over) where Warriors can't do this job and allows safety and easier run.

  1. Not having a Taunt: This makes them unviable for the fights that you need a taunt for.
  2. They will go oom if they don't use low ranks and seal of wisdom: In order to kill warriors in single target threat, you will need to use the higher ranks and you will go oom quickly. So that means that warriors will do more threat in the long run.
  3. There is not much gear for them to tank in raids: The main source of tank gear in vanilla is the tier gear and paladins don't have any tanking tier gear. So their only option is to use the non-tier epic pieces which are scarce and many times certain slots aren't in certain tiers.
I'm not saying the tankadins are bad players, their class is just simply broken and not that good in the raids. They fix these 3 issues in TBC and paladin tanks are seen as a necessity in TBC.


[*]Not having a Taunt: This makes them unviable for the fights that you need a taunt for.


All the fights that require taunt according to original tactic also wipe out the aggro from "taunter" , where warrior can be soaker only and the threat remain on Paladin on extremely high margins so raid can go all out.

[*]They will go oom if they don't use low ranks and seal of wisdom: In order to kill warriors in single target threat, you will need to use the higher ranks and you will go oom quickly. So that means that warriors will do more threat in the long run.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1_YEl0Yp8I

3:48 minutes = see mana (always max ranks used) . it is impossible to oom and you still remain on astronomical threats using Spell damage weapon .
Warrior threats are limited , but Paladin threats scale with more spell damage.

[*]There is not much gear for them to tank in raids: The main source of tank gear in vanilla is the tier gear and paladins don't have any tanking tier gear. So their only option is to use the non-tier epic pieces which are scarce and many times certain slots aren't in certain tiers.[/list]


We have every single item required from lowest up to the highest raids , there are awesome non tier epics which equate to warrior tier , also taking into account that we have more passive avoidance it makes balance between "warrior tier stamina" and "offset paladin avoidance" .

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 8017_o.jpg

Tanking hardest tanking Boss in Game (with blue items) enjoy it.

I'm not saying the tankadins are bad players, their class is just simply broken and not that good in the raids. They fix these 3 issues in TBC and paladin tanks are seen as a necessity in TBC.


TBC is for kids and damn easy so i can 1 button without even taunt using .

Taunt for Vanilla is required by 1 person (out of 4 tanks) where 3 Tanks can be non taunters as Paladins .

Nothing more , our only weakness is falsehood preachers that has no clue how our abilities work and jump over here preaching how bad/good on stuffs we are .
/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
User avatar
smilkovpetko
Legionnaire
Legionnaire
 

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by MrCer » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:06 pm

Out of curiosity, how would paladin tanks sit mechanic-wise for 4hm?
Last edited by Pottu on Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Did you really have to quote a post directly above yours when your question wasn't even related?
MrCer
Senior Sergeant
Senior Sergeant
 

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by Theloras » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:13 pm

zmandude24 wrote:To summarize the big picture, warriors are the better option for everything except for aoe threat where paladins DESTROY them. Yes paladins can tank many of the fights if the raid is creative with the mechanics, but that limits the strategies the raid can use. However, there are 3 major problems that a paladin tank faces in vanilla:
  1. Not having a Taunt: This makes them unviable for the fights that you need a taunt for.
  2. They will go oom if they don't use low ranks and seal of wisdom: In order to kill warriors in single target threat, you will need to use the higher ranks and you will go oom quickly. So that means that warriors will do more threat in the long run.
  3. There is not much gear for them to tank in raids: The main source of tank gear in vanilla is the tier gear and paladins don't have any tanking tier gear. So their only option is to use the non-tier epic pieces which are scarce and many times certain slots aren't in certain tiers.
I'm not saying the tankadins are bad players, their class is just simply broken and not that good in the raids. They fix these 3 issues in TBC and paladin tanks are seen as a necessity in TBC. Still, paladin tanks look like a ton of fun to use for powergrinding instances with an overgeared group due to the ability to pull like a madman without having to worry about threat.


The point of this thread wasn't Warrior vs Paladin tanking in general but merely me pointing out that the common preconceived notion that Warrior threat is higher than Paladin threat in a single target raid boss encounter is actually false.

Point for point, Paladin and Warrior damage dealing abilities are able to generate a similar level of threat in order to tank raid bosses successfully (Paladins are able to do a great deal more in AoE fights but that's already well known).

However, if a Prot Paladin merely puts up Judgement of Light, then his threat output will surpass the Warrior's threat output by far and not cost him any resources whatsoever in the process.

That's all I wanted to say here.
Theloras
Knight-Lieutenant
Knight-Lieutenant
 

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by smilkovpetko » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:38 am

MrCer wrote:Out of curiosity, how would paladin tanks sit mechanic-wise for 4hm?


4hm (the only and only one fight)

You go and Tank Holy Horse (top right side):

(as usual you want to do this fight with 8 tanks)
First i will quote mechanic .
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Four_Hors ... riginal%29

Mark does damage as 0, 250, 1000, 3000, 5000, 6000, 7000


Which mean with all the consumes you can go up to maximum 7 stacks as Tank (only 2 Tanks) rest of 6 Tanks switch other Horses Targets on lesser degree.

Horsemen Mark reapply every 12 seconds.


7 x 12 = 84 seconds

Lasts for 75 seconds since last time reapplied, then its timer resets.


This allows you to have 2x Tanks on 1 Horse .

shadow protection potion can absorb it though


How to survive easy last stack

Unique to each boss and acts just like Firemaw debuff.
"each mark reduce current Tank aggro"

Which mean only Paladin will do the Aggro at very Beginning (on his horse) until his 8 Marks where his Threats will skyrock , Warrior will just Taunt and will not do any aggro at all (his job is taunt and mockingbow).

When the 7th or 8th mark is reach Warrior will not Taunt again , the Boss will turn Automatic toward Paladin again as (his former threats have reach the maximum amounts and still remain there) , he run with Exorcism and GG.

The Horses HP is not that much ,200-500 k can easy go down by "today's knowledge" of damage dealers on DPS.
When raid kill 1st Horse , you have 2 more Backup Tanks to do the task on lesser stacks or to assist you.

Anything else you want to know about ?
/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
User avatar
smilkovpetko
Legionnaire
Legionnaire
 

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by Setup » Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:30 am

zmandude24 wrote:To summarize the big picture, warriors are the better option for everything except for aoe threat where paladins DESTROY them. Yes paladins can tank many of the fights if the raid is creative with the mechanics, but that limits the strategies the raid can use. However, there are 3 major problems that a paladin tank faces in vanilla:
  1. Not having a Taunt: This makes them unviable for the fights that you need a taunt for.
  2. They will go oom if they don't use low ranks and seal of wisdom: In order to kill warriors in single target threat, you will need to use the higher ranks and you will go oom quickly. So that means that warriors will do more threat in the long run.
  3. There is not much gear for them to tank in raids: The main source of tank gear in vanilla is the tier gear and paladins don't have any tanking tier gear. So their only option is to use the non-tier epic pieces which are scarce and many times certain slots aren't in certain tiers.
I'm not saying the tankadins are bad players, their class is just simply broken and not that good in the raids. They fix these 3 issues in TBC and paladin tanks are seen as a necessity in TBC. Still, paladin tanks look like a ton of fun to use for powergrinding instances with an overgeared group due to the ability to pull like a madman without having to worry about threat.
Image
User avatar
Setup
Stone Guard
Stone Guard
 

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by Theloras » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:16 am

Theloras wrote:
The point of this thread wasn't Warrior vs Paladin tanking in general but merely me pointing out that the common preconceived notion that Warrior threat is higher than Paladin threat in a single target raid boss encounter is actually false.

Point for point, Paladin and Warrior damage dealing abilities are able to generate a similar level of threat in order to tank raid bosses successfully (Paladins are able to do a great deal more in AoE fights but that's already well known).

However, if a Prot Paladin merely puts up Judgement of Light, then his threat output will surpass the Warrior's threat output by far and not cost him any resources whatsoever in the process.

That's all I wanted to say here.


CWUTIDIDTHAR?
Theloras
Knight-Lieutenant
Knight-Lieutenant
 

Re: Prot Paladin vs Prot Warrior single target threat debate

by Datruth » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:54 pm

Why is this still being circlejerked and theorycrafted on the forums? Put it to the test, you've had 1 year to make it happen and "silence the haters" instead you spend insane amounts of hours on spreading this pala propaganda
Datruth
Stone Guard
Stone Guard
 

PreviousNext

Return to Mechanics and classes