+Healing versus int/spirit

Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by Ayag » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:01 pm

Well, I guess so.

The thing is that int naturally comes with good pieces whereas the good blue healing gear is usually poor in stats (ie Robes of the Exalted, Cassandra's Grace, Padre's Trousers). So when getting pre-raid BiS, you can reach a healthy amount of HB but you'll usually lack stats, which is fine in my opinion. When getting T2 and the like, your HB won't get up as high as your other stats will.

I actually don't play on this server so I am not sure what you have access to, I play on VG but I'm always looking for theorycraft threads & quality discussion hence why I came here :)

I have more than decent gear I would say and indeed mana is usually not a problem (I'm usually 26/25 specced) on non-progression fights, but that doesn't mean I know everything and I like discussing it :)

My most used spells are Heal 1-4, FH 1/4/7 and PoH 1-4 depending on the fight. Also using Lesser Heal 3 quite a bit. I rarely use GH. I actually only use it with Focus when I think about it.
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Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by Jeniwyn » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:54 pm

I am slightly bored on a train atm so I figured I'd take the time to explain how I think about these issues. The aim is to be helpful, I'm sorry if I come across as arrogant.

Ayag wrote:Well, I guess so.

The thing is that int naturally comes with good pieces whereas the good blue healing gear is usually poor in stats (ie Robes of the Exalted, Cassandra's Grace, Padre's Trousers). So when getting pre-raid BiS, you can reach a healthy amount of HB but you'll usually lack stats, which is fine in my opinion. When getting T2 and the like, your HB won't get up as high as your other stats will.


I personally don't care much about how much I have of each stat. If the math suggested that I should put on no gear with bonus healing I'd do it. Because of down and upranking in vanilla, the impacy on playstyle is actually not very big as long as you change spells. I'd also point out that many of the preraid BiS lists seem to, as usual, vastly overrate +healing. For example I much prefer the Devout Crown over Cassandras Grace for most MC fights, consider Lady Maye's Pendant pre-raid BiS, Magister's Mantle is probably the best pre-raid shoulders but it is tight.

When Dire Maul was released more +healing gear became BiS obviously, since the DM healing gear in general just is well itemized with both stats and +healing. But when I started raiding on Nostalrius I had stats on most slots, to the point where I got teased for it. After about two weeks no one teased me anymore. Just as you considered yourself fine with little stats, I was fine with fairly small amounts of +healing. This is due to their interchangeability.

I actually don't play on this server so I am not sure what you have access to, I play on VG but I'm always looking for theorycraft threads & quality discussion hence why I came here :)


Goodie.

I have more than decent gear I would say and indeed mana is usually not a problem (I'm usually 26/25 specced) on non-progression fights, but that doesn't mean I know everything and I like discussing it :)


Mana is almost always a problem. The only times it really isnt is when you can literally cast max rank heals the entire fight without going oom and fights where it all boils down to burst healing over distinct and timeperiod(s).

To put it another way. If you are not using max rank of your heals (GH4, FH7) in a situation and conclude that mana isn't an issue. Then +healing isn't an issue either and the only stat you should look for is stamina so you don't randomly die. If you want more +healing to heal more you can just as well get more manastats and cast a higher rank on your heals.

My most used spells are Heal 1-4, FH 1/4/7 and PoH 1-4 depending on the fight. Also using Lesser Heal 3 quite a bit. I rarely use GH. I actually only use it with Focus when I think about it.


Lesser Heal Rank 3 is a vastly underutilized spell. Props for using it. I use it a lot too.

We do differ substantially on use of Greater Heal though. I do cast GH often, and if I had to pick the one thing that I'd like to improve the most in my game it would probably be to cast more Greater Heals (when it is the right thing to do, not just randomly ofc.) It is a fairly hard spell to use, but it is very powerful. It is easy to miss good opportunities to cast it. With 8-set transcendence (hopefully they will fix the buff slot sharing with normal renew on our server soon) it becomes almost stupidly good in some circumstances.

Greater Heal is at once the highest hps single target heal and a contender for highest hpm. The latter claim requires an explanation. If you can space your heals freely, GH4 beats all other heals since you heal more by emptying your mana pool with GH4 -》spirit regen mana -》start casting GH4 again than you do via chain casting low rank heals. It is also the case that if you put all other spells next to LH3 and look at the value 'extra healing/extra mana cost' GH of all ranks do very well. This is a very interesting state of affairs, and knowledge of it allows for smarter use of resources in many situations. A mix of LH3, Greater Heals and time outside of the 5sr is often both more mana effective and better for keeping the raid alive than just casting heal.
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Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by sdotlow » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm

@Jeniwyn - Wonderful posts. It's good to see others looking at the whole picture in terms of stats and their weights, and not just looking at +healing in a vacuum.

Int (to a lesser degree) / Spirit / MP5 and even Stam / resists have value when we're talking about progression. Especially when considering T2 3pc and Blue Dragon trinket (and preparing for AQ40 content, where mana will CERTAINLY be an issue).

I've also noticed that A LOT of priests I've interacted with think that +healing is the be all end all, ignoring all other stats to attain it. I just started playing vanilla wow again recently (was in world first guilds up until wotlk), and the priests in the guild I'm in all think like this. I don't know how one can even rationalize not needing mana, unless content is on complete farm - in which case stats are irrelevant.

Being top of the meter means nothing if you have 50% over heal, do nothing but snipe useless flash heals, and suck up innervates / mana pots that could be put to better use - AND WIPE.
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Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by Ayag » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:42 pm

Jeniwyn, thanks for your reply. I agree mostly with what you said.

Jeniwyn wrote:Mana is almost always a problem. The only times it really isnt is when you can literally cast max rank heals the entire fight without going oom and fights where it all boils down to burst healing over distinct and timeperiod(s).

To put it another way. If you are not using max rank of your heals (GH4, FH7) in a situation and conclude that mana isn't an issue. Then +healing isn't an issue either and the only stat you should look for is stamina so you don't randomly die. If you want more +healing to heal more you can just as well get more manastats and cast a higher rank on your heals.


I don't quite agree. Mana & +hb works together as they allow to spam more of a lesser rank. +hb always allow to heal more since it enhances your max ranks, which mana doesn't do.
Also, there is a point where you can't stack mana undefinitely. Good pieces pretty much have as much intellect as the slot allows (look the intellect differences between T1, T2, T3, Don Rigoberto's for example), then it enhances +hb & mp5.
I would agree that having loads of stats is more beneficial for a starter than being stacked on +hb with no stats (ie getting full T0 or T0.5 over Cassandra's etc), but then the itemization doesn't enhances your stats that much compared to what it does for +hb & mp5.

My most used spells are Heal 1-4, FH 1/4/7 and PoH 1-4 depending on the fight. Also using Lesser Heal 3 quite a bit. I rarely use GH. I actually only use it with Focus when I think about it.

Lesser Heal Rank 3 is a vastly underutilized spell. Props for using it. I use it a lot too.


Basically free heals, very useful on dire situations aswell.

We do differ substantially on use of Greater Heal though. I do cast GH often, and if I had to pick the one thing that I'd like to improve the most in my game it would probably be to cast more Greater Heals (when it is the right thing to do, not just randomly ofc.) It is a fairly hard spell to use, but it is very powerful. It is easy to miss good opportunities to cast it. With 8-set transcendence (hopefully they will fix the buff slot sharing with normal renew on our server soon) it becomes almost stupidly good in some circumstances.


The main reason that I am not using GH more is that Heal is usually the best spell I have to heal a tank. I usually can't "wait" for the tanks to get to the values where GH would be usefull, mainly because I am not alone healing my tank (especially if hots are ticking). I can see the advantages of using GH for the regen naps, but this is usually not happening for me.

Greater Heal is at once the highest hps single target heal and a contender for highest hpm. The latter claim requires an explanation. If you can space your heals freely, GH4 beats all other heals since you heal more by emptying your mana pool with GH4 -》spirit regen mana -》start casting GH4 again than you do via chain casting low rank heals. It is also the case that if you put all other spells next to LH3 and look at the value 'extra healing/extra mana cost' GH of all ranks do very well. This is a very interesting state of affairs, and knowledge of it allows for smarter use of resources in many situations. A mix of LH3, Greater Heals and time outside of the 5sr is often both more mana effective and better for keeping the raid alive than just casting heal.


Highest HPS for sure, higher HPM I don't agree. According to theorycraft, the lower the rank is the more HPM it has (ie GH4 actually has the lowest, while Heal 1 etc have better). It might be due to my +hb, it makes sense since the more healing you have, the more a lower spell has his "bonus healing" greater than his "base heal".
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Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by Ana » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:13 pm

H2 and H1 have the best HPM of all. H1 should have it better than H2 but it suffers from sub-lvl-20 penalties which makes the scaling a bit worse (and thus comparable to H2).

If you argue that high ranks of GH are good HPM when you space them freely... well, when you're freecasting rather than spamming, then it's not exactly top HPS is it?
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Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by Ayag » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:06 pm

I reread your post and understood the meaning of GH having a high HPM.
Yes this is true in that aspect, it's just not a luxury you can always afford.

You could argue that LH1-3 have the highest HPM since they can be virtually free when you have a good regen :) But they are not efficient enough, so you have to rely on other spells :)
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Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by Jeniwyn » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:36 pm

As for LH3 vs. H1 vs H2, they all have virtually the same hpm. Using the highest rank that doesn't overheal makes sense. At current gearlevels LH3 actually isn't best yet. I thought is was, but the break-point seems to be around 1210 healing but that point is fairly moot, it's still the best hpm for players who have lost less than ~1k hp and that is where it is used. As soon as we leave that territory, I usually start to look for places to cast bigger heals but that is more practice than theory so I'll concede that I was wrong about LH3 being the best hpm atm, H1 is. (Or well, LH1 is, but that heals for so little that you'd almost always rather just not heal at all.)

As for GHeal...

I'm talking of HPS in the situation it is used. That is, right now people need heals. Top one guy up, move to the next until the situation is safe. Not only is it safer for your raid than using 2x a smaller heal on them, but once you are in that safer place you can often enter the 5 second rule comfortably and the end result is that your raid spent less time on low hp and you ended up with more mana left for later. That's what I was talking about with the higher HPS and HPM. This situation isn't rare. Obviously now when content is on superduper farm this isn't going to matter a ton, but still.

The negative is mainly that there is less margin for error and if you have a bad day and your focus is lacking (like for me in BWL yesterday, ugh) it leads to a lot of overhealing and/or so many aborted heals that you end up just doing very little. In that situation you'd be far better off with an approach with less upside.

Finally, if you happen to find yourself in a situation where the renew from 8/8 doesn't overheal at all (not very common ofc), then Greater Heal rank 1 has the rather epic feature of having about 25% higher hpm than Heal Rank 2 and over twice the healing per cast-time. Now that is one juicy deal!
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Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by Forcerius » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:35 pm

Anyone know why my + heal does literally nothing? I only have a couple pieces (about 30+ heal at most) but my heals do MAYBE 5 more. And one piece (+15) does nothing. There's also two types "spells and effects" and "+ healing". Whats the difference? Thanks, i'm sure the info is on Google.
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Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by Böw » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:11 pm

gotmilk0112 wrote:Some people have calculated that for shorter fights (2-3 min), int is worth 2.3 times more than healing. And since almost every fight before BWL is under 3 minutes...yeah.

Image

Don't know why people keep pushing this "healing is the absolute best stat, way better than int" thing, it's kinda wrong. If you ignore int and stack healing to downrank, you're just offsetting the inevitable lack of max mana to do the same amount of healing.


in current gear you're ihtting 9k mana ezpz
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Re: +Healing versus int/spirit

by Imbaslap » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:40 am

Böw wrote:
gotmilk0112 wrote:Some people have calculated that for shorter fights (2-3 min), int is worth 2.3 times more than healing. And since almost every fight before BWL is under 3 minutes...yeah.

Image

Don't know why people keep pushing this "healing is the absolute best stat, way better than int" thing, it's kinda wrong. If you ignore int and stack healing to downrank, you're just offsetting the inevitable lack of max mana to do the same amount of healing.


in current gear you're ihtting 9k mana ezpz

unless you're lightwell spec. :D
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