Warlock raiding with 8 debuffs

[Cousy]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to help out the community a bit and specifically my warlock bros and our dealing with an 8 debuff limit. I'm gonna take a second a talk about how debuff prioritization is supposed to work before giving you the (what I and Exiled call) ideal raiding warlock build.

Debuffs work on a system of 5 prioritizations. The higher priority debuff will always knock off a lower priority debuff and works upwards from the bottom. A Taunt will try to knock off a trash debuff (Deeps Wounds, Fireball Dot) then a DoT (Corruption, SW:P) then a Medium (Vulnerabilities, Ignite, Vamp Embrace) then a High (Curses, Sunder, Demo, Thunderclap) if the debuff limit has already been reached.

Highest:

CC / Roots (Sheep / Seduce / Sap / Gouge / Frost Nova etc)
Taunt effects (Taunt, Mocking Block) (I've also read somewhere that Taunts get a special bonus debuff slots but can't confirm that)

High:

Curses
Sunder
Tclap / Thunderfury
Demo
Faerie Fire
Hunter's Mark
Judgements

Medium:

Vulnerabilities (Winter's Chill, Shadow Weaving, etc)
Ignite
Gift of Arthas
Vamp Embrace
Hunter Stings
Deadly Poison
Mortal Strike

Low:
DoTs, Longer duration = high priority

Trash:
Fireball Dot, Deep Wounds, weapon proc debuffs


That brings us to warlocks. In retail vanilla, the prevailing thought was SM/Ruin (30/0/21) was king. Keep corruption up and spam shadowbolts getting those nightfall procs. However, the DS/Ruin (7/21/23) spec actually out preforms SM/Ruin on single target fights. The talent builds are linked at the bottom. However, your raid will still desire an Imp for the tank group and this warlock should keep the SM/Ruin build but doesn't get to corruption the main targets. You can (and should) corruption adds that aren't being focused - Golemagg, Domo, Sulfuron, Garr - to get those nightfall procs but you cannot (and likely will not be able to) corruption the main target. Ultimately, this warlock will likely lose about 7-8% dps than it normally would if it was able to corruption.

With the DS/Ruin build you're basically a shadow version of a frost mage; you simply spam shadowbolt and lifetap when needed. What is great about this is that you don't need any debuffs to maximize your DPS; in fact, if you spent a global cooldown trying to apply a DoT you'd actually be hurting yourself.

I hope this helps the community and keeps my warlock bros from crying themselves to sleep over not being able to dot anything.

DS/Ruin - http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#Ix0 ... hoZvx0tM0z
You can change around points with Improved Healthstone as the different point Healthstones stack. The points in Demonology can be moved around as long as you get Demonic Sacrifice, that's all you're here for. The points in Destruction are set in stone. Suppression vs. Imp Corruption is preference. With this spec you Sacrifice your succubus and shadowbolt spam.

SM/Ruin - http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#IE0bhRbkAZZgx0tM0z
This spec is the exact one I run. SM/Ruin has a little more flexibility in Affliction. You can move the 5 points in Improved Life Drain to Amplify Curse + Exhaustion, Imp Exhaustion (I do this as my guild's SM/Ruin lock as I like exhaustion for pvp and don't need to respec and amplify curse is useful for phase 2 Onyxia). You can also move the 3 points in Imp CoA and 2 points in Suppression to Weakness or Fel Concentration if you'd like that instead. All the other points are set in stone. With this spec, you keep your phased imp in range of the tank and shadowbolt spam. You can corruption non-focused adds for extra dps.

[Kurthos]

You're making a lot of assumptions in your guide, which is fine, but there will be situations where DS Ruin warlocks would benefit from multi dotting or a shadow priest would be more advantageous than a faerie fire debuff. You're comparing a melee heavy comp versus a caster heavy comp and saying one is more likely than another, but really you should be mentioning both. Most bosses end up favoring ranged dps which would proportionally increase the amount of caster groups needed in a raid or decrease the number of melee groups desired.


You're also assuming 100% debuff uptime on debuffs like demo shout and thunderclap which won't always be the case. If my tanks are struggling to survive, sure, but if we want to push damage those debuff slots open up.

Many things will depend on if the debuff priorities are properly working, but that's something we will discover when we start playing.


Editted to clarify certain points, apologize for the ninja edit.

[Armilus]

DS Ruin warlocks never benefit from multi dotting and the only time a shadow priest is more beneficial than a faerie fire debuff is on shazzrah where the melee can't attack. I really don't think it's worth bringing a shadow priest for 1 boss.

As for a caster heavy raid comp, that is irrelevant. Mages do not benefit from shadow priests at all. Yes, if you have a really screwed up raid comp with 8 warlocks and less than 10 melee, then ya a shadow priest debuff is better than faerie fire.

[Kurthos]

In Naxx and AQ40 it isn't uncommon for you to bring 8 melee (horde). Multi dotting on flame imps is your only real form of pseudo aoe if they are properly immune to fire. Any fight involving movement and multiple mobs would benefit from multi dotting to avoid wasted gcds (Gehennas, Sartura, Heigan, Buru, etc).

It all really boils down to what your raid leader and guild wants to bring to a raid, but opinions aren't objective when trying to guide the community.

[TheLockKing]

Yes, if you have a really screwed up raid comp with 8 warlocks and less than 10 melee, then ya a shadow priest debuff is better than faerie fire.

Screwed up comp? By the FelFire, that comp is almost flawless! All it needs is a few priests to heal our demons (what, you think I'm going to waste my health on them?) and mages/shaman for frost damage to deal with Viscidus and MC. Closest thing to a perfect raid we can have until we figure out how to summon an army of demons.

[ironsides]

I still see the threat ceiling as an issue for horde warlocks even with the debuff limit. I'd be surprised if you get that any more mileage from sac over sm ruin. doesn't apply to alliance as they get salvation, unfortunately. kind of blows you won't be able to take advantage of that as easily.

[Hatson]

I still see the threat ceiling as an issue for horde warlocks even with the debuff limit. I'd be surprised if you get that any more mileage from sac over sm ruin. doesn't apply to alliance as they get salvation, unfortunately. kind of blows you won't be able to take advantage of that as easily.

Well that is the nature of Horde side PvE vs Alliance PvE.
They get Pallies.
We get Shamans.
They get Blessings. - Salvation.
We get Totems. - Windfury.

It's the exact opposite effect of those two, one lowers aggro and the other makes aggro higher, but also dramatically increases the dps of melee, especially if anyone is using TF (WF procs proc TF proc, the dmg is cray cray).
But in general, yes - Alliance PvE is more beneficial for casters. While Horde is more beneficial for melee. (for the most part at least)

[Cousy]

I still see the threat ceiling as an issue for horde warlocks even with the debuff limit. I'd be surprised if you get that any more mileage from sac over sm ruin. doesn't apply to alliance as they get salvation, unfortunately. kind of blows you won't be able to take advantage of that as easily.

I think we both know that the threat ceiling and I are old friends, even with salvation.

[Evertx]

Thank you for the information. I never played quite this early back in retail. Is it resonable to assume that it'll take a long time before 16 debuffs are introduced? I really want to play dotbot down the line...

[Kurthos]

Horde casters can use tranquil air totem and use paladin alts when salv is wanted/needed, but we're going slightly off topic now.