How will Ret Pallies justify their raid spot?

[TheFishyOne]

After observing a rather...heated discussion on hybrid DPS, I've noticed that all the other hybrid DPS specs either bring valuable raid buffs/debuffs to a raid or in the case of Ele Shammies, scale obscenely with gear. Ret Pallies, however, bring no unique raid buffs that would be universally good, and I do not know how they scale with gear. Imp SotC WOULD be in the same boat as Imp WF for Ele Shammies, but it relies on the presence of a Tankadin to mean anything, whereas WF is universal. Buffwise, Imp BoM and Kings can be easily picked up by Holy Pallies.

Yes, Ret DPS is horribly gimped atm by the Sanc Aura and Vengeance bugs, but they won't always be. On that day, what reason would an RL have to bring a Ret Pally over a Holy or Prot one, or even another class? What do Ret Pallies provide a raid better than anyone else?

For my purposes, this is PvE only, and a "Ret Pally" is any Pally with 5/5 Vengeance.

[justclassic]

After observing a rather...heated discussion on hybrid DPS, I've noticed that all the other hybrid DPS specs either bring valuable raid buffs/debuffs to a raid or in the case of Ele Shammies, scale obscenely with gear. Ret Pallies, however, bring no unique raid buffs that would be universally good, and I do not know how they scale with gear. Imp SotC WOULD be in the same boat as Imp WF for Ele Shammies, but it relies on the presence of a Tankadin to mean anything, whereas WF is universal. Buffwise, Imp BoM and Kings can be easily picked up by Holy Pallies.

Yes, Ret DPS is horribly gimped atm by the Sanc Aura and Vengeance bugs, but they won't always be. On that day, what reason would an RL have to bring a Ret Pally over a Holy or Prot one, or even another class? What do Ret Pallies provide a raid better than anyone else?

For my purposes, this is PvE only, and a "Ret Pally" is any Pally with 5/5 Vengeance.

Currently you should just abuse the bugs and you'll be a fine dps.

Only use SoCr and don't judge , use a fast 2h weapon (destiny f.e. or brainhacker) unless you get your hands on a bonereavers or any bwl 2h , spam r1 consecration on CD (you might get a tick off), spam How between autoswings while in execute range.

Stack as much Ap and crit as possible after getting 4-5% hit.

[TheFishyOne]

I think you misunderstand my question.

If DPS is all Ret Pallies are good for, why not replace him with a Rogue or Fury Warrior who will provide much more? I want to know what utility Ret Pallies bring that only they can, or if they really are on par with pure DPS in the abscence of major class bugs and after 1.9.

[justclassic]

I think you misunderstand my question.

If DPS is all Ret Pallies are good for, why not replace him with a Rogue or Fury Warrior who will provide much more? I want to know what utility Ret Pallies bring that only they can, or if they really are on par with pure DPS in the abscence of major class bugs and after 1.9.

They bring a blessing if you allready have enough healers and don't need another holy pala.

Aura for grp.

Devine intervention can be nice.

[GTrax]

Everyone CAN and HAS to agree Ret Paladins can not compare to pure dps classes when it comes to singletarget DPS in raids Be it because of the numerous class bugs Sanct Aura(wont increase SoC dmg) Benediction(doesn't work at all), Consecration and any other kind of aoe(won't deal dmg on targets with max amount of debuffs, yes its 100-150 dps loss raidbuffed and ITS HUUUGE. AKA the missing 20-30%dps to make Retri competetive with Rogues and Warrs.) OR just because Ret paladins did not get love from Blizz devs during vanilla.

Ret Paladins however can bring the utility of an extra paladin in the raid by spamming Cleanse 24/7, Judge Wisdom/Light, Blessings, Auras Yes It is true that Holy Paladins can also judge wisdom and light and can cleanse, but Holy paladins have 0 dps at best, while Retri can still do about 70%(or a few % more if tryhard enough) of equally geared pure dps class. Making a Retri just spam the hell out of cleanse on tanks instead a healer having to stop healing to cleanse is in a plus. Here I want to add that in many occasions there are not designed healers for cleansing the tank on trash/boss and frequently multiple healers stop healing to get in range for Cleanse/Dispell making it dangerous for the tank's life. Having retri judge light/wisdom instead of a HolyPala having to run to boss/trash judge than run back to safe distance(every 10sec or every 40sec with imp judge) is also in a plus. Having a Retri spec into Imp BoM instead of a healer who could put the 5pts in more usefull talents is in a plus.

Putting a retri in melee group does give the melee that extra 800armor or 60resistance. Rogues/Warrs getting oneshotted by AoE that could have had its dmg reduced by extra fire/frost/shadow resistance is also in a plus.

Overall you mostly won't want to put more than 1-2Retris per raid and I would understand that. But having 1 Retri in a raid of 40 people is not such a dps loss as to slow down the raid. If Retri does not Cleanse, Judge Wis/Light, or uses Sanct Aura(about 0% increased dps as of current bugs) for the negligible dps increase instead of Resistance/Armor aura for his group then he IS a waste of raid slot.

[smilkovpetko]

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=25503

A Paladin’s Role
The paladin’s roll in a group has always been a difficult one to define, for both the paladin and his group. For instance, a paladin can act as a very viable tank in the five-man content before level 60, but many argue that at level 60 they become less and less viable. A paladin’s DPS is frequently argued to be the lowest in the game, making it unviable for raids, but people will also frequently argue that our heals are too small to have any serious effect on the raid. Don’t let yourself get belittled, rise above this. A paladin can easily be the longest-lasting healer in the game. A paladin is the lowest maintenance DPS supplement in the game (since we wear plate and no healer needs to show serious concern for us). A paladin is a very viable AoE tank, and can off tank and even main tank many endgame instances, based on gear, spec, and open mindedness of their group. In fact, a paladin can work at constantly morphing to fill the current needs of the raid every second. It’s even possible to achieve many of these goals all at once. If someone tries to tell you that you are playing in a poor fashion, take a second to reflect. Have you been using the full range and scope of your class? Could you be doing something better? Is something you’re doing detrimental? Just think about what you’re doing and make sure that you’re doing the best you can.

On the other hand, if you have been called into a group to fill a single roll (supplying a blessing, cleansing, healing, tanking, DPS, whatever it is), fill that role or leave the group. Just because you are a hybrid class does not mean you always get to do whatever you want. More often than not, a paladin is brought into the group with the group expecting it to act as a healer, and you should always be prepared for this eventuality. Remember that a paladin’s gear has more effect than a paladin’s spec when it comes to filling a role, so either use a very balanced set of gear, or bring several sets for multiple purposes.

[TheFishyOne]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

I had thought of the utility an extra Pally can bring, but did not think of the fact that Prot DPS depends on him AoE Tanking, and a Holy Pally does less DPS than a Wand Spec spriest wanding the whole fight.

I don't plan on going Ret anytime soon due to nearly every core mechanic of the spec not working, but once we are fixed, perhaphs.

Duki, you seem to be the numbers guy around here; once 1.9 hits and our gear is reitemized, how well will Ret Pallies scale with gear when compared to an Ele Shammy?

[smilkovpetko]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

I had thought of the utility an extra Pally can bring, but did not think of the fact that Prot DPS depends on him AoE Tanking, and a Holy Pally does less DPS than a Wand Spec spries wanding the whole fight.

I don't plan on going Ret anytime soon due to nearly every core mechanic of the spec not working, but once we are fixed, perhaphs.

Duki, you seem to be the numbers guy around here; once 1.9 hits and our gear is reitemized, how well will Ret Pallies scale with gear when compared to an Ele Shammy?

with fixed abilities it will be extremely high .

Sp + Str = double boost to command . Agility/Crit go until you get 26% base crit + 6% from consumes - 32%.

The crit cap getting help if you use full enchants on your gear with Agility.

Spell damage by far will be better than Strength , but you need both because you don't want to risk melee swings too .

It all depend for example . On boss Fight you will need pretty good skill to show the dps , while on Trash if you have proper itemization you would give the Best DPS from all the classes (including the pure) .

Example on itemization :

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer ... Killerduki

Stats Prio = Int > Agility > Sp > Str (until 32% Crit) (26% unbuff + 6% from buffs)
Stats Prio = Int > Sp > Str > Agility (once you have 32%) (26% unbuff + 6% from buffs)

Hit Cap = 7% until Aq40 . 8% once you go Aq40 .

(Band of accuria from MC helps to get hit cap by not risking other items because gives 2% hit + 14 Agi).

[smilkovpetko]

also to don't get confused regarding stats :

2 Str = 1 SP

if the item "example paladin set" consist :

3 Str 2 SP that will equal to = 3.5 SP .

Int = your mana , without mana = your values drop down to this calculations .
With mana the value of stats get higher .

[Nugeneration]

After observing a rather...heated discussion on hybrid DPS, I've noticed that all the other hybrid DPS specs either bring valuable raid buffs/debuffs to a raid or in the case of Ele Shammies, scale obscenely with gear. Ret Pallies, however, bring no unique raid buffs that would be universally good, and I do not know how they scale with gear. Imp SotC WOULD be in the same boat as Imp WF for Ele Shammies, but it relies on the presence of a Tankadin to mean anything, whereas WF is universal. Buffwise, Imp BoM and Kings can be easily picked up by Holy Pallies.

Yes, Ret DPS is horribly gimped atm by the Sanc Aura and Vengeance bugs, but they won't always be. On that day, what reason would an RL have to bring a Ret Pally over a Holy or Prot one, or even another class? What do Ret Pallies provide a raid better than anyone else?

For my purposes, this is PvE only, and a "Ret Pally" is any Pally with 5/5 Vengeance.

I highlighted the issue I am going to address.

1) Ele shamans do scale well with gear
2) Being horde they do not have salv/kings therefore horde warriors/mages/locks all do less damage than Alliance versions.
3) If Alliance had Ele Shamans with Paladins or vice versa they would never be considered at all (and still usually aren't as mana tide is still better in all situations)
4) Ele shaman are viable, but no more than what Rets/Boomkins are even at the later AQ/Naxx levels.
5) Geared or not Ele shaman will be below Mages/Locks/Warriors/Rogues. You can always make the argument that will they have viable DPS why not bring another dps that does the job better or a resto shaman for mana tide.

As far as I can remember for Horde the top dps in naxx for Horde are Rogues>Mages>Warriors/Locks. This could be wrong so take it with a grain of salt since I didnt raid as Horde in retail vanilla and going by my memory.

For Alliance it is Locks>Mages>Warriors>Rogues with warriors gaining a slight upperhand above mages/locks on melee friendly fights.

There is a reason Blessing of Salv and Kings were highly debated on being broken back in retail for Alliance when compared to Horde.