What are the best classes & specs for each different role?

[Tinkertown]

It should be noted that we know that during the TBC beta Blizzard screwed up and made at least one equippable item scale with spell damage. It was rather quickly fixed, long before release of TBC. Many, if not all, of the rumors likely stem from this time.

But that isn't all this episode tells us. It also demonstrates that any such items would quickly have been used and abused in vanilla if they existed, since as soon as they did exist that is exactly what happened. The amount of players running around testing things through all of vanilla is absolutely enormous compared to the amount in TBC beta, and there just is no way something like this would be able to fly under the radar.

[Noselacri]

I think you're giving these simpletons what they want by letting all focus move onto this Storm Gauntlets topic where they feel justified in denying any arguments because definitive proof can't realistically be procured. They probably gave up trying to maintain their "paladins are fabulous tanks" charade and are happy to let pages of bickering about ultimately unverifiable SP scaling on an obscure vanilla item wash away their previous humiliation.

[Theloras]

Theloras...

+damage
Posted: Nov 21st 2005 4:02am| IP: Logged | Reply to this
By: xxfobxx
Score: Decent

Link to this post

does the proc scale with +damage gear?

1 reply
+damage
Posted: Aug 11th 2006 6:47am| IP: Logged | Reply to this
By: Wenduki

Score: Decent

Link to this post

Don't know of any Plate items equipped with + Fire Gear, and I don't know of any casters that'd use this for more than a Large Brilliant Shard... but the Fire is indeed considered and effect, so I would imagine Fire Spells and Effects gear would slightly increase this damage...

https://web.archive.org/web/20070213213 ... item=19968

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Considering the fact that there is conflicting evidence in this case (both for scaling and for not scaling), let me state yet again that I take the word of an official Blizzard GM over private server forum trolls like yourself and Noselacri any day of the week and I was not the only person who felt as such.

You would know this if you had actually read through the bug tracker report and gone through the sheer number of replies from multiple people:

https://github.com/FeenixServerProject/ ... ssues/3652

As I've said before, you are more than welcome to submit your own query on Battle.net and ask Blizzard directly, which you have refused to do - and you are more than welcome to move on from what has proven to be a useless exercise here as the only logical result of the items scaling on a private server in 2015 are Fire Rogues which even I would agree are very destabilizing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZC5YeqkNxA

TLDR - you haven't convinced me regardless of whether I "like you" or not and you never will because I take Blizzard's word over yours but it doesn't matter anyway because you guys are arguing for the sake of arguing over a non-issue that means nothing in the end.

[Theloras]

I think you're giving these simpletons what they want by letting all focus move onto this Storm Gauntlets topic where they feel justified in denying any arguments because definitive proof can't realistically be procured. They probably gave up trying to maintain their "paladins are fabulous tanks" charade and are happy to let pages of bickering about ultimately unverifiable SP scaling on an obscure vanilla item wash away their previous humiliation.

I thought you weren't going to post in this thread anymore because according to you:

So, fuck off you utter despicable piece of shit. That's how you deserve to be spoken to, and I will never again read anything you post because you're literally the worst person on this forum. You are human filth incapable of communicating without trying to attack everybody who doesn't share your views, and you then have the disgusting audacity to take offense when people respond to you in the tone that you began with. You started that, and then you get upset when people don't just bow down and accept your abuse.

You are shit. You are a terrible person.

Perhaps I should remind you that I've suggested numerous times now that the entire +Fire/Nature dmg debate is a non-issue, seeing as you have forgotten that...

[Theloras]

It should be noted that we know that during the TBC beta Blizzard screwed up and made at least one equippable item scale with spell damage. It was rather quickly fixed, long before release of TBC. Many, if not all, of the rumors likely stem from this time.

But that isn't all this episode tells us. It also demonstrates that any such items would quickly have been used and abused in vanilla if they existed, since as soon as they did exist that is exactly what happened. The amount of players running around testing things through all of vanilla is absolutely enormous compared to the amount in TBC beta, and there just is no way something like this would be able to fly under the radar.

https://github.com/FeenixServerProject/ ... ssues/3652

theloras commented on Aug 12, 2014
Not having to do with the items in question but significant to show what was possible when thinking outside of the box and trying unconventional combinations of weapons/gear:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/726 ... bout-WoW...

-There was a Hunter that stacked Spell Damage gear (for mend pet) and soloed Azuregos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_-_3tfmU-o

-In TBC beta, there was a quest reward dagger in Netherstorm that dealt arcane damage instead of physical. It scaled with Spell Damage, so Mages would hit really hard with it in melee.

Pulse Dagger

This used to deal Arcane damage, and scaled with spellpower. This enabled mages to inflict abnormally high melee damage when they used their trinkets and Arcane Power.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Pulse_Dagger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbh1sDDkB3k

[Noselacri]

Looks serious.

[Aethelwulf]

We can revisit the "Can Paladins do threat?" issue if you wish. On the matter of damage mitigation, Warriors resoundingly trounce Paladins, which leaves superior threat output as the only conceivable reason to consider a Paladin tank, particularly given the gear competition for tank pieces between Paladins and Warriors. On matters of threat as well, threat per second charts have indicated the Warrior to possess a drastically superior threat output, but you are asserting some manner of unknown factor (your favorite kind of argument: the unfalsifiable kind) that could purportedly improve the Paladin's threat output. By all means feel free to elaborate, but as it stands, Paladins have been proven to be inferior tanks in every aspect save AoE tanking where they do appear to output superior threat.

As for the quote you are detailing from 2006, I'm afraid your selective perception is overtaking your cognitive abilities. Let me stress again his use of the phrase "I would imagine." He is presenting a hypothetical. To construe that as evidence is to fail at the fundamental principles of logic. Ergo, there is no "conflicting evidence" because you still have not presented any actual evidence. Calling me a "private server forum troll" does not improve your intelligence either and for what it's worth I have actually avoided private servers owing to low population and a high volume of bugs in the past. Nostalrius is essentially the only private server I have played. And I am taking issue with your statements for a much simpler reason than trolling: Because you are wrong. Additionally because you are arrogant and persistent in peddling your ignorance. That is why I am upbraiding you so.

As for your insistence that I present my own query to Blizzard, you seem to misunderstand something. You do not get to create your own rules for argument. I am certain it is a very appealing notion to a mind prone to fanciful notions such as yours but I am not about to entertain your predilection towards moving goalposts. The important matters are logic and evidence. I have presented both. You, meanwhile, have presented neither. Your Blizzard query remains pure hearsay by the Blizzard rep's own admission. You may pride yourself on having contacted Blizzard if you wish, but it is the sort of pride that lowers you in the eyes of others because it is not something to be proud of, least of all when the contact is fruitless. It is not the Blizzard customer rep's words you can put stock in, because the rep can only vouch having heard another mention this. It thus remains fundamentally a rumor and hearsay, which is why it is not evidence.

I do not need to "convince" you either. The more you persist in remaining unconvinced despite the increasing evidence and logic to the contrary, the more you expose your irrationality and consquently make a laughingstock out of yourself. Additionally, if this question ever comes to the Nostalrius bug tracker, this argument will serve a valuable purpose in discrediting you on the spot without muddying the bug tracker there.

Incidentally, your concern with topicality remains dubious given your eagerness to derail further unto the matters of Feenix and seal twisting. I do not think your issue is topicality truly, but rather your inability to exercise control over the structure of the argument, seeing as this argument proves you for a fool.

[Orthodoxy]

We can revisit the "Can Paladins do threat?" issue if you wish. On the matter of damage mitigation, Warriors resoundingly trounce Paladins, which leaves superior threat output as the only conceivable reason to consider a Paladin tank, particularly given the gear competition for tank pieces between Paladins and Warriors. On matters of threat as well, threat per second charts have indicated the Warrior to possess a drastically superior threat output, but you are asserting some manner of unknown factor (your favorite kind of argument: the unfalsifiable kind) that could purportedly improve the Paladin's threat output. By all means feel free to elaborate, but as it stands, Paladins have been proven to be inferior tanks in every aspect save AoE tanking where they do appear to output superior threat.

As for the quote you are detailing from 2006, I'm afraid your selective perception is overtaking your cognitive abilities. Let me stress again his use of the phrase "I would imagine." He is presenting a hypothetical. To construe that as evidence is to fail at the fundamental principles of logic. Ergo, there is no "conflicting evidence" because you still have not presented any actual evidence. Calling me a "private server forum troll" does not improve your intelligence either and for what it's worth I have actually avoided private servers owing to low population and a high volume of bugs in the past. Nostalrius is essentially the only private server I have played. And I am taking issue with your statements for a much simpler reason than trolling: Because you are wrong. Additionally because you are arrogant and persistent in peddling your ignorance. That is why I am upbraiding you so.

As for your insistence that I present my own query to Blizzard, you seem to misunderstand something. You do not get to create your own rules for argument. I am certain it is a very appealing notion to a mind prone to fanciful notions such as yours but I am not about to entertain your predilection towards moving goalposts. The important matters are logic and evidence. I have presented both. You, meanwhile, have presented neither. Your Blizzard query remains pure hearsay by the Blizzard rep's own admission. You may pride yourself on having contacted Blizzard if you wish, but it is the sort of pride that lowers you in the eyes of others because it is not something to be proud of, least of all when the contact is fruitless. It is not the Blizzard customer rep's words you can put stock in, because the rep can only vouch having heard another mention this. It thus remains fundamentally a rumor and hearsay, which is why it is not evidence.

I do not need to "convince" you either. The more you persist in remaining unconvinced despite the increasing evidence and logic to the contrary, the more you expose your irrationality and consquently make a laughingstock out of yourself. Additionally, if this question ever comes to the Nostalrius bug tracker, this argument will serve a valuable purpose in discrediting you on the spot without muddying the bug tracker there.

Incidentally, your concern with topicality remains dubious given your eagerness to derail further unto the matters of Feenix and seal twisting. I do not think your issue is topicality truly, but rather your inability to exercise control over the structure of the argument, seeing as this argument proves you for a fool.

/thread

As an unbiased observer I hereby declare Aethelwulf the winner. Prot Paladins are as bad as we all knew they were before this thread even started.

[Theloras]

False statements otherwise known as lies

LOL looks like the moderators have hidden the other thread which means that this one is soon to disappear as well - but If you must insist on continuing this e-peen measuring contest Aethelwulf, it isn't just my opinion:

"You confuse the ignorance of the masses as the winning side, because more people have a tunnel vision mentality. I (a warrior) have given great information on available pally tank loot, where they excel, why even on a tauntable boss 1 can be used."
- Undertanker (a Prot Warrior no less)
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 83#p157783

"We (me and.the.other two pallies) have many times answered your questions, corrected your incorrect information, and done our best to properly educated you and the people.who.come.here for.knowledge. You can continue to be ignorant and narrow minded and God awful at math, just keep this shit.to yourself."
- Undertanker (a Prot Warrior no less)
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 57#p152257

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As far as Duki's threat calculations, they were based on current patch itemization here on Nostalrius - therefore Pre-Raid items compared to the Warrior in MC/Ony/BWL gear - based on the request by both Ana and Vices for a detailed theory crafting of how Paladin threat would look like math wise - nor did he include Judgement of Righteousness or Consecration in the rotation until a further post:

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 40#p154868
- Vices post

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 40#p154897
- Duki's first theory craft example

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 50#p154920
- gear differential

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 60#p154946
- Consecration + Judgement of Righteousness

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 50#p154915
- Sidesprana's first response

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 50#p154932
- Sidesprag's second response

The all hell broke loose when you guys derailed the thread over spell dmg scaling and $hit hit the fan.

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"...save AoE tanking where they do appear to output superior threat."

This made me giggle the most because of how minor you make the difference in AoE threat between the two classes sound - simply put we absolutely blow the fucking lid off of Warrior threat in any AoE situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXJNCdIJ6dI
- Warrior AoE tanking spider packs in Naxx and DPS having to wait ~30 second to DPS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy1uk0k73YA
- Warrior AoE tanking Fankriss adds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rFEMKiRxKw
- Paladin AoE tanking with Force Reactive Disk and Consecration and doing $hitloads of dmg and threat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPeUCinVckA
- Killerduki AoE tanking with only Consecration (no FRD shield) and keeping threat as the Frost Mage does 8k AoE DPS

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"On the matter of damage mitigation...particularly given the gear competition for tank pieces between Paladins and Warriors."

Yet another refreshed for you from earlier in this thread:

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... ns#p152330

@Aethelwulf and the other forum trolls here...

Listen to the Undertanker for he speaks the truth!

- edit -

Caspus wrote:
True but you have to fight every warrior in the game to get gear from BWL and AQ40, its basically pulling teeth. I'm just pointing out that comparing getting tank gear to warriors, its a lot longer for paladins to keep up. Not saying its not there.


That is the common misperception but DKP settles that argument along with Warrior T2 set bonuses - especially for offset items in AQ40:

Boots of the Unwavering Will
Binds when picked up
Feet Plate
647 Armor
+29 Stamina
+12 Strength
+8 Agility
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increased Defense +5.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21706

Pauldrons of the Unrelenting
Binds when picked up
Shoulder Plate
650 Armor
+30 Stamina
+11 Strength
Durability 100 / 100
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increased Defense +9.
Equip: Increases your chance to dodge an attack by 1%.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21639

For example, none of the tanks in the guilds I ran with on Peenix wanted to break their set bonuses for these offset items therefore they went to me without any fuss or argument from anyone in the guild.
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 30#p151244

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"Additionally because you are arrogant and persistent in peddling your ignorance. That is why I am upbraiding you so."

Sorry - but you are in fact private server troll and as I said before I would take the word of an official Blizzard GM over you any day of the week regardless of whether I think you have your head up your a$$ or not. The fact that you are refusing to submit your own ticket on Battle.net is shows that you are afraid to know what you might find out.

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"Incidentally, your concern with topicality remains dubious given your eagerness to derail further unto the matters of Feenix and seal twisting. I do not think your issue is topicality truly, but rather your inability to exercise control over the structure of the argument, seeing as this argument proves you for a fool."

As I've said before, without patch notes to refer to, we have no official word from Blizzard one way or the other. What we do have are conflicting reports from a myriad of sources both during and after Vanilla which cannot be independently varied by you or myself - hence why I wrote Blizzard to ask them directly. Neither you nor I can say with 100% absolute certainty that we are correct in either of our respective opinions.

The Seal Twisting bug tracker is quite appropriate to this conversation as it shows that you should never be so quick to rush to judgement one way or the other:

https://github.com/FeenixServerProject/ ... ssues/4025

Mofoleone commented on Jun 12, 2014
I like how this issue is based on TBC evidences and nothing that shows that was a case in vanilla.

P.S. ofc there is delay in SoC, this is based on TBC core.

/salute

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Mofoleone commented on Jun 13, 2014
I'm being serious here, I've played ret paladin during TBC and I know what was seal twisting, but I don't remember seal twisting being possible during vanilla.
That's why I ask you, do you have any proof for that?
And by proof, show me some video or combat logs, because you're focusing whole teorycrafting on lvl 70 and seal of blood.

I hope the devs wont make wrong decision and put TBC things in Vanilla.

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Like yourself, Mofoleone was a known forum troll both on the bug tracker and Peenix forums - but it turned out that no matter how much he bitched and moaned that I had no evidence whatsoever and that it shouldn't have been possible during Vanilla, I proved without a shadow of a doubt that Seal Twisting was in fact completely doable and like you, just how much of a fool he was:

https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/ass ... 491870.jpg

https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/ass ... abf1bc.jpg

https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/ass ... 56553f.jpg

Therefore, you shouldn't be so quick to rush to judgement as the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Theloras]

Looks serious.

PS - can you guys tell Noselacri to take me off of his forum ignore list?

I don't hide behind them and it only makes him look like a giant "female genitalia"

#JustSayin