Life Stealing vs Crusader

[DrearyYew]

The way I think of it is soft vs hard ppm. Hard ppm is what we have on retail right now: you will always get exactly x many procs per minute. However, Vanilla functions off of soft ppm. What this means is that over a very large sample size, we will see an adequate ppm value. However, we aren't guaranteed those procs. Instead, the proc chance on these procs scale with weapon speed. For example, Seal of Command for Paladins has a different proc rate for each weapon speed. If we analyze the statistics over large sample sizes, we find a soft ppm of 7. It's still a percent chance to proc, so in a sample size of 1 minute, it is entirelt possible to have 0 procs, and is possible to have 12 procs.

[St0rfan]

The way I think of it is soft vs hard ppm. Hard ppm is what we have on retail right now: you will always get exactly x many procs per minute. However, Vanilla functions off of soft ppm. What this means is that over a very large sample size, we will see an adequate ppm value. However, we aren't guaranteed those procs. Instead, the proc chance on these procs scale with weapon speed. For example, Seal of Command for Paladins has a different proc rate for each weapon speed. If we analyze the statistics over large sample sizes, we find a soft ppm of 7. It's still a percent chance to proc, so in a sample size of 1 minute, it is entirelt possible to have 0 procs, and is possible to have 12 procs.

I completely agree. Now, I havnt done enough testing on procs on Nost (nothing on crusader, honestly) but the way PPM is modelled on other private servers is also this way. %-chance of a crusader proc to to occur is determined by the un-hasted, un-modified weapon-speed of your current weapon. This was likely removed by blizzard because very slow weapons benefited alot from this system when adding haste buffs, enchants, flurry, etc into the mix. Enchants and items with an internal rock-solid CD was introduced sometime in TBC (or with its release, I am not sure) as I remember noticing it with the Tsunami talisman trinket from Leotheras the Blind in SSC, while Dragonspine trophy (Gruul imbalanced trinket) did not have an internal CD. This leads me to believe the internal CDs was introduced with the intriduction of SSC/TK (T5 instances).

[Plask]

Since you're using Julies dagger which is a 1.30 speed weapon, let me add another alternative for you.

+5 Weapon damage is unexpectedly good on fast weapons as it's a flat min/max damage increase on the weapon unlike crusader which is PPM based and based on attackspeed.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/Damage_per_second

TL:DR this formula
DPS = ((Min Weapon Damage + Max Weapon Damage + Min Extra Damage + Max Extra Damage) / 2) / Weapon Speed

Now, compare the difference between the DPS Julie's Dagger has and what it gets when you add +5 on min and max weapon damage. Given the PPM of crusader and what attackpower it average to, you will be able to see that +5 weapon damage is better then crusader when using 1.3 speed weapon.

Of course, this is in terms of DPS->TPS and doesn't consider small survivability Lifesteal/crusader proc gives. However, it's very, very small and neglible.

[diogenes]

As I said in earlier posts, PPM is not part of the game mechanics, it's just an easier way for players to talk about variable proc chances.

I'm extremely confused as to what you're trying to indicate here, because in your earlier post you said,

For example, with a 3.00 speed weapon crusader will proc twice as often as on a 1.50 speed weapon but you are attacking half as often so it balances out.

It was pointed out, at that point, that this is what people were talking about in the first place and then you continue to say "ppm" was not a thing in vanilla. It seems to me that you're actually refering to items/enchants/abilities that have "internal cooldowns," which weren't a thing in vanilla. However, it is just wrong to say that there was no such thing as ppm in vanilla when the percent chance you have for something like crusader to proc is variable based on its weapon speed.

PPM and internal cooldowns are in no way the same thing.

[St0rfan]

Since you're using Julies dagger which is a 1.30 speed weapon, let me add another alternative for you.

+5 Weapon damage is unexpectedly good on fast weapons as it's a flat min/max damage increase on the weapon unlike crusader which is PPM based and based on attackspeed.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/Damage_per_second

TL:DR this formula
DPS = ((Min Weapon Damage + Max Weapon Damage + Min Extra Damage + Max Extra Damage) / 2) / Weapon Speed

Now, compare the difference between the DPS Julie's Dagger has and what it gets when you add +5 on min and max weapon damage. Given the PPM of crusader and what attackpower it average to, you will be able to see that +5 weapon damage is better then crusader when using 1.3 speed weapon.

Of course, this is in terms of DPS->TPS and doesn't consider small survivability Lifesteal/crusader proc gives. However, it's very, very small and neglible.

I now return after having tested crusader on a 1.3 speed weapon. I put crusader on Finkle's skinner and in ~2200 hits I got ~220 procs. This is a strong indicator that Crusader isnt working on a PPM-schedule as I first would've believed. (This being Uniqe to Nost ofcourse, as in retail vanilla it did work on PPM). If Crusader on Nostalrius is a flat 10% procrate, irregardless of weapon speed, this would mean that Crusader is the premium choice of enchant no matter what weapon you are using. Further more, my procwatch-addon also showed a crusader uptime of around 3.5-4.3 PPM (just a word, not to be confused with PPM earlier mentioned) which means crusader on a 1.3 speed dagger will roughly give you a flat increase of 66str.

TLDR: Crusader on Nost is 10% flat proc rate, probably not affected by workings of PPM. This makes crusader incredibly powerful and superior to all other choices.

[Youfie]

Since you're using Julies dagger which is a 1.30 speed weapon, let me add another alternative for you.

+5 Weapon damage is unexpectedly good on fast weapons as it's a flat min/max damage increase on the weapon unlike crusader which is PPM based and based on attackspeed.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/Damage_per_second

TL:DR this formula
DPS = ((Min Weapon Damage + Max Weapon Damage + Min Extra Damage + Max Extra Damage) / 2) / Weapon Speed

Now, compare the difference between the DPS Julie's Dagger has and what it gets when you add +5 on min and max weapon damage. Given the PPM of crusader and what attackpower it average to, you will be able to see that +5 weapon damage is better then crusader when using 1.3 speed weapon.

Of course, this is in terms of DPS->TPS and doesn't consider small survivability Lifesteal/crusader proc gives. However, it's very, very small and neglible.

I now return after having tested crusader on a 1.3 speed weapon. I put crusader on Finkle's skinner and in ~2200 hits I got ~220 procs. This is a strong indicator that Crusader isnt working on a PPM-schedule as I first would've believed. (This being Uniqe to Nost ofcourse, as in retail vanilla it did work on PPM). If Crusader on Nostalrius is a flat 10% procrate, irregardless of weapon speed, this would mean that Crusader is the premium choice of enchant no matter what weapon you are using. Further more, my procwatch-addon also showed a crusader uptime of around 3.5-4.3 PPM (just a word, not to be confused with PPM earlier mentioned) which means crusader on a 1.3 speed dagger will roughly give you a flat increase of 66str.

TLDR: Crusader on Nost is 10% flat proc rate, probably not affected by workings of PPM. This makes crusader incredibly powerful and superior to all other choices.

Well that's.. .

I'm very surprised by your post, and I'll run my own tests, but if it is indeed true, it needs to get fixed asap !

[Plask]

Since you're using Julies dagger which is a 1.30 speed weapon, let me add another alternative for you.

+5 Weapon damage is unexpectedly good on fast weapons as it's a flat min/max damage increase on the weapon unlike crusader which is PPM based and based on attackspeed.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/Damage_per_second

TL:DR this formula
DPS = ((Min Weapon Damage + Max Weapon Damage + Min Extra Damage + Max Extra Damage) / 2) / Weapon Speed

Now, compare the difference between the DPS Julie's Dagger has and what it gets when you add +5 on min and max weapon damage. Given the PPM of crusader and what attackpower it average to, you will be able to see that +5 weapon damage is better then crusader when using 1.3 speed weapon.

Of course, this is in terms of DPS->TPS and doesn't consider small survivability Lifesteal/crusader proc gives. However, it's very, very small and neglible.

I now return after having tested crusader on a 1.3 speed weapon. I put crusader on Finkle's skinner and in ~2200 hits I got ~220 procs. This is a strong indicator that Crusader isnt working on a PPM-schedule as I first would've believed. (This being Uniqe to Nost ofcourse, as in retail vanilla it did work on PPM). If Crusader on Nostalrius is a flat 10% procrate, irregardless of weapon speed, this would mean that Crusader is the premium choice of enchant no matter what weapon you are using. Further more, my procwatch-addon also showed a crusader uptime of around 3.5-4.3 PPM (just a word, not to be confused with PPM earlier mentioned) which means crusader on a 1.3 speed dagger will roughly give you a flat increase of 66str.

TLDR: Crusader on Nost is 10% flat proc rate, probably not affected by workings of PPM. This makes crusader incredibly powerful and superior to all other choices.

Dear god

I never noticed that while I was using it myself. Just assumed it was PPM here. Is this on the bugtracker? It's a kinda major bug for melees.

[Undertanker]

I am not sure if I got unlucky or what, but was doing dm east speed runs and of the three bosses we kill, would only get it to proc on one boss per run.

It seems the last few days the proc chance is much much lower. Using on Alcor Sunrazor last night so 1.3 speed.

Will test uptime on Onxyia tonight, might be going impact + sharpening stone, and use gift of arthas pots in 5 mans. That is 18 damage range increase which makes close to a 60 dps weapon.

[St0rfan]

I am not sure if I got unlucky or what, but was doing dm east speed runs and of the three bosses we kill, would only get it to proc on one boss per run.

It seems the last few days the proc chance is much much lower. Using on Alcor Sunrazor last night so 1.3 speed.

Will test uptime on Onxyia tonight, might be going impact + sharpening stone, and use gift of arthas pots in 5 mans. That is 18 damage range increase which makes close to a 60 dps weapon.

BIG EDIT:

I just found the reason why we are getting strange proc-uptimes and it is very embarassing to admit. In proc-watch I had the term "holy strength" added as a search-word for proc-watch to look for in combat-log. This ment that it ALSO noted other party/raid participants procs which ofcourse HEAVILY skewed the stats. I changed this term to "you gain holy strength" so that it doesnt count others procs and whoopsy daisy now I got a proc-rate of about 0,5-1 PPM.