Queston about sap mechanic

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Queston about sap mechanic

by Peacebringer » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:23 pm

I have a question about one rogue's sap mechanic. I remember well that in TBC retail you could use rogue's sap ability for crowd control in dungeons but I am wondering if that was the same thing during patch 1.12.1?
I am asking this because on any private vanilla server that I played, the mob that you want to sap would always detect rogue when he tries to sap it.
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Re: Queston about sap mechanic

by Azalus » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:41 pm

I haven't played a rogue much, but I'm pretty sure that normal sap takes you out of stealth. So using it in dungeons doesn't work unless it's the last CC used because the rogue will then draw aggro of mobs nearby.

However, there is an improved sap talent that if you have 3/3 gives you a 90% to return to stealth after sapping. That would be necessary to achieve what you're looking for I believe.
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Re: Queston about sap mechanic

by lyrical » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:19 pm

If i remember, sap work well on NR, ofc it's better to get improved sap like Azalus told you but with a good group (good CCs), max range, and with a ditract/shield on you just before, that's fine, even without 3/3 Imp Sap.
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Re: Queston about sap mechanic

by Drain » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:22 am

It's not the Sap that aggros anything. It's the fact that your stealth drops, and then you're left standing visible right next to mobs. What do mobs do when you get too close? If you don't have the talent to improve it, you won't stay in stealth when you use it.

This is probably something that only us long time veterans know, because it was changed early in BC, before WoW ever became a mega giant in Wrath. Most players have probably never played when Sap ever did drop stealth, so they don't remember it ever doing so. If you look at the sub numbers and when Sap was revamped, this shouldn't surprise. It's one of those things exclusive to WoW's earlier, much more difficult, days. But originally, it did drop stealth. You had to invest a majority of your points into Sub for a 3/3 talent just to get a 90% chance for it not to. Later, in BC, it became higher up the tree, cheaper, and 100%. Eventually it became free, given to the ability by default. Why was it changed? Well, that's another discussion entirely. But I'll say this much; BC heroics.

Azalus wrote:I haven't played a rogue much, but I'm pretty sure that normal sap takes you out of stealth. So using it in dungeons doesn't work unless it's the last CC used because the rogue will then draw aggro of mobs nearby.

However, there is an improved sap talent that if you have 3/3 gives you a 90% to return to stealth after sapping. That would be necessary to achieve what you're looking for I believe.


You're wrong on 2 different accounts here. Firstly, Sap needs to be the FIRST CC, not last, because it can only work on targets that are not in combat. Every CC by default(No future "no aggro" buffs here) aggros mobs. Once a mob has been aggroed, Sap is useless. It will return an error message if you try to use it. This means Sap needs to be performed first. Other CCs can be used in combat, Sap cannot.

Secondly, Improved Sap did not ever return you to stealth. It kept you from dropping stealth in the first place. These are not the same thing. It means you were never visible to begin with, and they won't hit you or have any time to apply debuffs to you which would immediately drop it if it worked as you suggested. If it did drop stealth, then tried to restealth you, ie Vanish, you could take damage between effects because mobs react instantly, or you could get hit with dots that then just drop the stealth.
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Re: Queston about sap mechanic

by Azalus » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:34 am

Here is where I got the wording "return to stealth." It's the wording Blizzard gave it in the talent tree.

http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=11215875_4
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Re: Queston about sap mechanic

by Drain » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:38 am

I see that, but it's not accurate. The info box is misleading. In this case, I can see the confusion, but how I said it works is how it really worked. Anyone that's rolled a Rogue can tell you, and if Nostalrius has scripted its server well, you'll be able to see yourself in the test session. If the Rogue doesn't land in that 10% area, you'll never see one at all when they Sap you. You'll just hear a sound, and have the CC applied to you. If they get too close to the front of you, you'll see them, but that has nothing to do with Sap or whether it's on you. If you are a Rogue and go Sap mobs in groups, none of them will ever move or react unless you destealth, in which case you won't go back in. It's either stay in(90), or drop out(10). There's no drop out and return.
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Re: Queston about sap mechanic

by ZanathKariashi » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:00 am

Yeah...that's pretty common actually for poor wording.

Like Anger Management says it allows your rage to last 30% longer out of combat (which it sort of technically does), but what it actually does is cause you to generate 1 rage per 3 seconds, at all times, as long as you're in combat or have at least 1 point of rage.

The tooltip wasn't corrected to show it's actual effect until the 3.0 pre-patch.
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Re: Queston about sap mechanic

by Drain » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:56 am

I remember a bug where Anger Management prevented your rage from decaying. My Warrior had a few good days before they corrected it. You could stock your rage up to 100, then queue for a BG or go looking for a player. It didn't decay if you had the talent. Paladin had a similar bug with Reckoning, where you could build up as many charges as you liked, and just go 1 hit kill the very next player you came across. All you had to do was let a mob beat on you for a while, don't swing back, build up charges, then go looking for a player. They nerfed these bugs very quickly after introducing them, as players were quick to abuse the hell out of them. In AV, you could sit around with a dummy mob to build up the rage or swing charges.
R I P: Untoten(29d, 12h), Schuss(54d, 10h), Bluten(27d, 8h), Angst(9d, 11h), Zauber(23d, 5h)
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Re: Queston about sap mechanic

by TheGreyMouser » Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:14 am

I know this is an older post, but feel it is beneficial to mention, that while sap cannot be used on a player / mob that is in combat and requires stealth, Blind does not. It isn't good for an opening CC but is awesome to CC say that ranged caster and reduce a tanks incoming damage. This is especially beneficial at lower levels, where most players have very little or no spell resistance.

Also remember, that while rogues can do very good dps, that isn't always their main contribution. In SM for example, 2 monks are beating on your tank.. stun lock 1 of them. Nobody is going to worry about your slight decrease in dps and if they do, the tank and healer will set them straight quick enough.
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