What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by nessåj » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:55 am

I second this - at least for Rogues, don't know about Warriors and rage generation & shit.



True it can be better to go for crit as rogue too since your yellow hit already 40 % crit with backstab in the spec (with no item) and + 30 % on the crit damage so 230 % on yellow hit.
Since you already yellow cap with 5 % hit you can rush crit, but your yellow hit have already 40 % crit, i think you can do a mix between those (cause poison need land attack too).
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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by Youfie » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:16 pm

nessåj wrote:
I second this - at least for Rogues, don't know about Warriors and rage generation & shit.



True it can be better to go for crit as rogue too since your yellow hit already 40 % crit with backstab in the spec (with no item) and + 30 % on the crit damage so 230 % on yellow hit.
Since you already yellow cap with 5 % hit you can rush crit, but your yellow hit have already 40 % crit, i think you can do a mix between those (cause poison need land attack too).


Hey, I disagree with your statement saying (unless I misunderstood you) that the more +crit you have, the less +crit is valuable.

Actually how much crit your BS got doesn't matter it terms of DPS by which another +1% crit. increases its DPS. Altough with more and more crit, each +1% crit will be a smaller gain in percentage, the DPS value in itself won't change.

Overly simplified example :
Let's assume average uncrit BS damage of 600 50% of the time & 1380 crit. 50% of the time.
Average dmg = 990.

+1% crit to the BS = 600 * 49% + 1380 * 51% = 294 + 704 = 998 average BS damage, i.e. 8 more than before (+0,808...%).

Another +1% crit means 288 + 718 = 1006, i.e. 8 more than before (+0,801...%).

In this example, with a 600 / 1380 Backstab, +1% crit. will always add 8 damage to it in average, whether you have 1% or 99% crit with BS, although the relative gain will be less and less significant (0,808 > 0,801 etc.).

Conclusion : if you have enough hit to be capped with special abilities, then crit is ALWAYS better than hit, even if you have 99% crit on your BS :).

(You're right that +hit does increase Instant Poison procs tho, while +crit doesn't. I guess the gain from +crit. is by far better, I'd have to calculate it. Not to mention mobs can be immune to poison, or that you may not use poisons on both weapons).
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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by nessåj » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:16 am

Conclusion : if you have enough hit to be capped with special abilities, then crit is ALWAYS better than hit, even if you have 99% crit on your BS .

(You're right that +hit does increase Instant Poison procs tho, while +crit doesn't. I guess the gain from +crit. is by far better, I'd have to calculate it. Not to mention mobs can be immune to poison, or that you may not use poisons on both weapons).


Yeah you are right too, but assuming the fact that you cannot have crit on all piece, and crit gonna be less significant (and agi upgrade it too), have more than the soft cap hit can be a good thing.

And for example : assuming the fact 19 % miss (only 5 % hit), 5 % dodge, 40% GB, mean if you have more than 36 % crit having 37 % won't add damage on your white hit (only yellow) while hit will add some white damage (and opening a slot for more crit or more GB). So crit is theoretically not always the better option since you reached crit cap.
These is 5 + 5% with dagger, so 10 % in spec, admit +5 % with drood tank in group (dream is real xD), 29 agi for 1 % critical (don't know the average agi rogue actually have) admitting 290 agi so 10 % crit from agi.
So you need +11 % crit from item, crit cap not the hardest thing to have for rogue

PS: corrected with edit some shit i writted.
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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by Youfie » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:19 pm

nessåj wrote:and crit gonna be less significant (and agi upgrade it too),

I strongly disagree. This is what I've showed just above : the more crit you get, the less the gain from crit is significant in relative terms, but in absolute values, it's always the same - all other things being equal.


You're right about the crit. cap thing, forgot tomention that :).
It's actually quite hard to get crit capped tho, unless you don't know about the mechanic or your itemization is weird : with 5% from talent and at 5% on your gear (which is quite easy), you're already set for up to 39% crit before being capped (assuming 24% base missrate). 39% crit isn't something unreachable at all, but by the time you get that you usually have more easy / unavoidable +hit thrown on your gear :).
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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by Armilus » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:06 pm

If you are looking at the value of crit in terms of how much AP 1% is equivalent to, then yes the value goes down as you get more crit. This is because as you get more crit, your AP get's more valuable, not because the crit becomes less valuable.

With a set amount of AP, each point of crit from 1 to 30 increase your damage by the same amount but 1 AP increases your damage by more when you have 30% than it did when you had 1% crit.

Fury warriors can hit the soft crit cap fairly easy because they don't have a talent that gives them hit. It should start happening in BWL with onyxia buffs. Once your hit the soft crit cap you want to ride that line, add crit only when you are just under, add hit when you are just above.
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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by Youfie » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:57 pm

Armilus wrote:If you are looking at the value of crit in terms of how much AP 1% is equivalent to, then yes the value goes down as you get more crit. This is because as you get more crit, your AP get's more valuable, not because the crit becomes less valuable.

With a set amount of AP, each point of crit from 1 to 30 increase your damage by the same amount but 1 AP increases your damage by more when you have 30% than it did when you had 1% crit.

Fury warriors can hit the soft crit cap fairly easy because they don't have a talent that gives them hit. It should start happening in BWL with onyxia buffs. Once your hit the soft crit cap you want to ride that line, add crit only when you are just under, add hit when you are just above.

Some wise words :)
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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by Undertanker » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:54 pm

So hijacking this thread back for OP.

What does weapon skill do?

Reduces base miss chance but is questionable if working correctly.

Reduces glacing blow damage reduction.

After exceeding a mobs def rating the rating gives 0.02 reduction to being dodged, parried or missing per skill point.
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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by Skinkelynet » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:47 am

@ Netherfrost // Any other with weaponskill knowledge
Do you have an character ingame that I could ask some questions about weaponskill?
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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by zmandude24 » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:06 am

Hatson wrote:
So say you're an Arms Warrior using a 2hander: You ideally want 5 + 3 = 8% hit if you're going to be swinging at raid bosses.


Arms Warrior: What's the arms rotation again?
Raid Leader: Putting on tank gear and off-tanking.
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Re: What does Weapon Skill do in vanilla?

by Ektelion » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:55 am

Undertanker wrote:So hijacking this thread back for OP.

What does weapon skill do?

Reduces base miss chance but is questionable if working correctly.

Reduces glacing blow damage reduction.

After exceeding a mobs def rating the rating gives 0.02 reduction to being dodged, parried or missing per skill point.


1 weapon skill for a melee class gives 0.04 extra chance to HIT - CRIT - 0.04 chance to not dodge/parry your target and mitigation to glancing blow damage.

Glancing blows damage - 30% reduction =/= 40% chance to happen while AUTO attacks(white) only

with 305 weapon skill * racials come in mind * you have around 15~% reduction damage from glancing blows
with 310 weapon skill you have 95% reduction damage from glancing blows
which means past 310 weapon skill is not worth sacrificing any other stats of your gear
( hell not even over 305 is worth it but anyway )
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