Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

[DKPminus]

Hopefully it all works out in the long run. :/

[Nano]

I'll share my thoughts on this later today.

[Doofoos]

Destroying is always easier than building (pardon for bad english).
Elysium is burned down by revealing the "truth", but no one knows what will happen next - how fkd up will be timelines/progress/stability of another servers. Pretty good chances that community will be divided even more than it was yesterday.
And my personal opinion on all this shitshtorm about black economy - gold selling and r14 drawing

[Seminko]

This is quite a shitstorm. Elysium will apparently continue to run. Which is fucking bad. This will divide the community.

I've seen quite a few ppl who were ok with "corruption" and I presume those will stay with Elysium. But my worry is that if I choose Light's Hope and will dedicate hours on end to my chars and six months down the line there will not be enough support, not enough developers, not enough GMs etc and the project will shut down. That's not a good feeling...

[Azuregos]

I don't get the "divide the community" posts.

Shit like this spreads like wildfire. Elysium will just be an empty husk in a few days. People will move on to where they think it's more legitimate.

If anything Light's Hope is the only "possible" solution (bla bla bla whitekidney sold gold 7 years ago). Meaning everyone will flock there shortly.

[cybaster]

[sorrana]

Is dat a karazhan spoiler?

[Keftenk]

Hi Azuregos, I've missed you ;;

[Winterflaw]

So, there are definitely a couple of things to say here.

1. Accusation is not guilt

Jurisprudence is bloody difficult and humans are no good at it. It's hard enough to get even vaguely right in a court, wih trained professionals. In an on-line forum full of people with no training? forget it. People "prove" what they believe.

Be clear - I'm not offering *any* opinion here about what happened or why; I'm only saying that there has not been, and in this forum there cannot be, any decent jurisprudence. Keep that in mind; don't go overboard on judgement. You've not heard anything or anyone speak in the defence.

2. It's not wrong in and of itself to sell chars or gold; the problem is *deceiving* people that it's not happening when it is

Similarly, if money was being siphoned off from the donation account for the server costs and people were donating without knowing this, it's wrong.

Everything you do with other people has to be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence.

The servers can pretty much be run any way at all - *so long as people know the truth and agree to it*. It's the deception which is the problem. You can't say "if you donate it's for server upkeep" and then use the money for something else. You can't say "gold selling is banned" when it's a lie.

3. Shenna made a comment about people having no loyalty, and not being worth a fair play

I think there is a good deal of truth in the lack of loyalty. Most players I guess do not contribute. If the server really went down, they would move on - although they would lose a great deal of time invested in their characters.

However, this is irrelevant; if the players are there, you still have to tell them the truth. If you don't like what they do, then don't offer the server in the first place, or (say) only offer it to people who contribute to the server costs.

Anything else and it can easily become a slippery slope of self-justification for deceiving others. You can't ever decieve, except in self-defence.

4. One question about gold selling...

If gold selling was going on with unofficial support, were there players who bought this gold who were then banned, in the anti-gold selling drives?

Actually, in one sense, this is not unreasonable from the point of view of the buyers - the people buying *knew* there were at risk of being caught and banned. It was an informed choice to buy.

However, the stomach does rather turn at the idea of someone *offering to sell gold*, knowing the risk to the person who was buying. It's like selling cigarettes.

5. So what now?

I'm not actually clear about what's happening to Elysium - is it permanently down? has the money contributed to its upkeep (assuming there is some, and its a meaningful amount) been taken over by Light's Hope? if so, Elysium would seem to be dead - how can they pay for their servers? is Light's Hope the same as Elysium, minus the people who were deceiving players?

The problem with deception of course, from a long term POV, is that it destroys trust. You can't know what else is going on, or what might be done, or what other injusticies might come in the future. Good governance is *VITAL* to long term success. No team or server can do well in the long term without it.

[Starvoid]

Nost = Light's Hope ?
or what am I missing