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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:48 pm
by Pottu
Wirt wrote:I just love how you draw the conclusion that either Whitekidney is a criminal mastermind or he didn't sell any gold on Nostalrius.

Criminal mastermind in the sense that he wasn't caught and that nobody has outed him

Wirt wrote:Crogge did say ... Ghostly also says

The Crogge Discord quote is from later on. He is now accusing Whitekidney of hacking his Reddit account, he has accused LH of cracking the hashed databases, and loads more. He is obviously deflecting his own guilt by trying to make it seem that everyone does the same thing. He even claimed that Nostalrius sold gold under the table, just to lessen his own guilt. The only time he has been remotely honest is that leaked staff meeting and the first interview, and it was noticeable that during that early time, he didn't yet accuse WK of anything. He only figured out this PR tactic later. Furthermore, he has made blatantly false claims about Nostalrius before. Ghostly was not on Nostalrius and he is just repeating the confused claim.

Duki, that claim is completely absurd.

Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:48 pm
by Crackéd
Winterflaw wrote:
smilkovpetko wrote:
cybaster wrote:Agreed. As far as conspiracy theories go, this one is completely irrational. There is no evidence to support the idea that Whitekidney had the freedom from oversight that, say, Crogge abused.


Same as Whitekidney deleted the whole Database , yes it is truth and he had that freedom to do it.


There's a difference between what you can do, and what you can do without it being noticed.

WK clearly can do pretty much anything. However, when you do something obvious - like deleting the databases - everyone notices, and right away.

The earlier allegation, which I found hard to credit, was the idea WK introduced code into the server which caused lag. I've no doubt he *could* do this, but what makes it hard to credit is that it could be done without anyone else noticing, either when it was done or on and ongoing basis. Such code is very strange, would be noticed, and people would then ask questions. It's not something which can be done covertly, and the allegation is that it was done, covertly, and that no one else noticed, and so I find it hard to credit.

Actually the logistics are the smallest problem, especially if you are the one doing the builds (you can introduce code into the sources just before you do build that doesn't have to be present anywhere else) or if you have access to the machine doing the builds (replace compiler with a modified version that will automatically insert your code into the build), both of these are actually very easy to do and as you can see, even you as a software developer didn't think of these simple attacks.

What is less plausible is that someone would actually find a way to introduce just enough overhead to make the server laggy but not crashing all the time, that requires some serious insight into the protocol, data flow of the server and even the actual machine capabilities.

Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:13 pm
by Winterflaw
Crackéd wrote:Actually the logistics are the smallest problem, especially if you are the one doing the builds (you can introduce code into the sources just before you do build that doesn't have to be present anywhere else) or if you have access to the machine doing the builds (replace compiler with a modified version that will automatically insert your code into the build), both of these are actually very easy to do and as you can see, even you as a software developer didn't think of these simple attacks.


These attacks are incredibly difficult to do, so much so that they are completely discountable. I earlier this year needed to figure out how to build GCC, the standard C compiler for Linux. It took me THREE MONTHS. I have more than twenty years experience with C and Linux.

The suggestion that learning how to not just compile GCC, but actually *modify* it - a horrendously harder task - such that it becomes aware of your own particular code base and inserts an attack in the binary, is *easy*, is staggeringly, boggling, the single most absolutely and catagorically incorrect assertation I have read in at least the last ten years.

What is less plausible is that someone would actually find a way to introduce just enough overhead to make the server laggy but not crashing all the time, that requires some serious insight into the protocol, data flow of the server and even the actual machine capabilities.


I may be wrong, but I don't think so. If the code in its normal form copes *normally* with real-life latency, and does well enough with that, why would it need any special handling? what's the difference between 500ms of real lag in real life, and 500ms of fake lag?

Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:15 am
by cybaster
Winterflaw wrote:What is less plausible is that someone would actually find a way to introduce just enough overhead to make the server laggy but not crashing all the time, that requires some serious insight into the protocol, data flow of the server and even the actual machine capabilities.


Right, but we're dealing with Whitekidney the salted SHA cracking evil code genius who could, if arrested, probably hack his handcuffs off. The very same man who happens to be a master manipulator and engineered a cunning and contrived plan of gradually corroding the faith and trust Elysium's staff have with eachother in a silent campaign exploiting philosophy and greed; all with the specific plan of allowing him to break Elysium in half and drain its best blood to energize his own nefarious machine. Since we're on a roll, he might as well have done 9/11.

Clearly our boy WK has stepped up his game since his casual banditry on Nostalrius.

Lol.

Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:14 am
by Wirt
Pottu wrote:The Crogge Discord quote is from later on. He is now accusing Whitekidney of hacking his Reddit account, he has accused LH of cracking the hashed databases, and loads more. He is obviously deflecting his own guilt by trying to make it seem that everyone does the same thing. He even claimed that Nostalrius sold gold under the table, just to lessen his own guilt. The only time he has been remotely honest is that leaked staff meeting and the first interview, and it was noticeable that during that early time, he didn't yet accuse WK of anything. He only figured out this PR tactic later. Furthermore, he has made blatantly false claims about Nostalrius before. Ghostly was not on Nostalrius and he is just repeating the confused claim.
We already know Crogge is a snake. I didn't see him accuse Whitekidney for hacking his Reddit account though. Also, he started with this game straight away in the staff meeting by saying Whitekidney is of the same brand by having sold gold in the past. While it's true, it doesn't justify his own actions.

You chose to stay after it was confirmed a lot of suspect guys were involved and the head administrator was profiting from the project. That was in February. Now you have a notorious hacker and exploiter running the show. He's been an obstructionist by putting hacking and exploiting tools in circulation. He's also been selling gold and leveling services. He even had a thread to sell gold on your own project, with the price set for it. Lastly, he's a slandering liar. When he lost the race to 60 on your project, Nostalrius, he explained his defeat by forging lies about the victor. It's here on these very forums. When the exposal of Vitaliy, hackers and exploiters was going on in February, Whitekidney was eager to shut down Alexensual because he took part in this. If you don't even see the conjunction of all of these facts as a problem, then you're a delusional fool. But then again, you also took part in that by sanctioning my account when I was requesting transparency regarding donations.

Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:18 am
by cybaster
Wirt wrote:When the exposal of Vitaliy, hackers and exploiters was going on in February, Whitekidney was eager to shut down Alexensual because he took part in this.


I'd love to see some material on this one, as it's new to me. I've listened to every audio leak I could get my hands on, but I don't remember this bit. What was the context? Did he consider Elysium's administration legit at that point, and Alex a threat to a server he thought was on the level? Needs more info.

Most of us have seen the leaks related to WK, even before this Elysium debacle. I consider myself pretty studied in drama lore and a good judge of character, and the openness WK has been displaying lately, as well as a general lack of evasiveness when pressed about his past paints him in a somewhat more positive light than I expected when I heard how all of this went down. You can actually go on the LH discord and expect him to talk in between coding binges. He's not giving the telltale signs of a bullshitter. Of course that can mean he's actually an expert at it. But it can also mean he's actually on his best behavior.

I mean shit, I've seen people accuse Pottu of corruption, but he's one of the most draconian guys around when it comes to RMT. Remember that time he pissed off like half of Elysium's staff by banning two entire guilds, to a man, for harboring and failing to report obvious RMT in guild chat?

The point I'm trying to make is that people, and I'm including you on this one, find ways to make things look worse or better than they ever are. So show me something I don't already know about WK.

Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:46 pm
by Wirt
cybaster wrote:
Wirt wrote:When the exposal of Vitaliy, hackers and exploiters was going on in February, Whitekidney was eager to shut down Alexensual because he took part in this.


I'd love to see some material on this one, as it's new to me. I've listened to every audio leak I could get my hands on, but I don't remember this bit. What was the context? Did he consider Elysium's administration legit at that point, and Alex a threat to a server he thought was on the level? Needs more info.

Most of us have seen the leaks related to WK, even before this Elysium debacle. I consider myself pretty studied in drama lore and a good judge of character, and the openness WK has been displaying lately, as well as a general lack of evasiveness when pressed about his past paints him in a somewhat more positive light than I expected when I heard how all of this went down. You can actually go on the LH discord and expect him to talk in between coding binges. He's not giving the telltale signs of a bullshitter. Of course that can mean he's actually an expert at it. But it can also mean he's actually on his best behavior.

I mean shit, I've seen people accuse Pottu of corruption, but he's one of the most draconian guys around when it comes to RMT. Remember that time he pissed off like half of Elysium's staff by banning two entire guilds, to a man, for harboring and failing to report obvious RMT in guild chat?

The point I'm trying to make is that people, and I'm including you on this one, find ways to make things look worse or better than they ever are. So show me something I don't already know about WK.

There were concerns about Zzuk, Radeghost and Whitekidney working within Elysium and/or the Legacy Gaming Network project. Zzuk is the author of a well known farming bot. Radeghost has been botting and selling gold and power leveling. And Whitekidney, as you already know, has sold gold and power leveling and traded exploits and hacks on top of being a total douchebag here on Nostalrius. Alexsensual made a video on 15 February about them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wojIMT1fDDI using the information found here as a basis: http://i.imgur.com/frSaPVV.jpg

Then on 17 February additional information came out. This time about Vitaliy, the head administrator of Elysium. He had been caught being in a Chinese RMT channel offering to unban someone in exchange for money. The very same day Shenna made a statement about Vitaliy where she declared him innocent: https://i.imgur.com/Qjt2A8Y.png

On 19 February Alexsensual made another video which touched the findings on Vitaliy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuxHT8uHYDo

Here's a good post about Vitaliy's past on Valkyrie and his actions on Elysium: https://www.reddit.com/r/wowservers/com ... e_against/

Suzerain made a post on 21 February saying he believes the information about Vitaliy is true (https://puu.sh/udQTN/e6bb4952be.jpg). On the next day he resigned from the project (https://www.reddit.com/r/ElysiumProject ... l_for_now/).

So, when you take into consideration the evidence against Vitaliy and that Zzuk, Radeghost and Whitekidney were exposed for the obstructionists they were or had been in the past, why would Whitekidney try to shut the criticism down? Also, according to Pottu, Whitekidney didn't have any other role than to work with webserver stuff at the moment (https://i.imgur.com/8XvrG1K.png). Yet we see him taking a loud and dominant role on how to handle things when he demands to ban Alexsensual (http://i.imgur.com/DRDjUUr.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/bXngHvP.jpg). He even runs over those at the communications team when they don't share his opinion. Alexsensual was banned on 20 February. According to Suzerain, Whitekidney and Asura went through logs and found that logs that would prove whether Vitaliy was guilty or not had been removed. So, did Whitekidney advocate for an unban on Alexsensual after these findings? And why did they allow both Shenna and Vitaliy under new aliases after this?

I'm not ruling out the possibility that Whitekidney could be clean. But why didn't he (and Pottu) go with the evidence and demand a change of leadership back in February? Were revelations hurting Whitekidney's ambition to gain full access to the project? Also, why did Whitekidney ask Crogge for compensation for his silence but didn't release those screenshots?

Why did Whitekidney put effort in helping the Nostalrius team with security just to start conspiracies against them shortly after? (https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4077) Was he trying to get a position in the team so he could spawn gold and run a business and when he didn't get that he started trashing them? It's interesting because he started off in Elysium by only helping out with webserver stuff yet he ended up having full access.

Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:48 pm
by cybaster
I see where you're going with this. But we're lacking the missing link in the grand malevolent design: How the fuck is kidney going to make money off of this project with the entire team he works with breathing down his neck?

That's why I don't buy it. Everybody's watching everybody now. None of the sysops, as far as I know, are capable of of so much as sneezing without it being logged for the others to parse, with how they're setting things up now.

Moreover, the character you're painting in this little dossier illustrates in pretty clear outlines someone who isn't quite sure what he wants. By your own admission he seems to have bounced around in terms of attitude and motive. This is a stark contrast to how he appears to behave now.

I don't usually err on the side of tolerance, but it looks to me like Kidney has, frankly, done a bit of growing up. There's one other reason I'm inclined to regard him with cautious optimism - he's never really been all that interested in concealing his activities or history. It looks like he may have never even genuinely tried.

This illustrates someone very different from the sociopaths I vendored my Ironfoe in protest of, a month into Elysium.

Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:54 pm
by Crackéd
Winterflaw wrote:
Crackéd wrote:Actually the logistics are the smallest problem, especially if you are the one doing the builds (you can introduce code into the sources just before you do build that doesn't have to be present anywhere else) or if you have access to the machine doing the builds (replace compiler with a modified version that will automatically insert your code into the build), both of these are actually very easy to do and as you can see, even you as a software developer didn't think of these simple attacks.


These attacks are incredibly difficult to do, so much so that they are completely discountable. I earlier this year needed to figure out how to build GCC, the standard C compiler for Linux. It took me THREE MONTHS. I have more than twenty years experience with C and Linux.

The suggestion that learning how to not just compile GCC, but actually *modify* it - a horrendously harder task - such that it becomes aware of your own particular code base and inserts an attack in the binary, is *easy*, is staggeringly, boggling, the single most absolutely and catagorically incorrect assertation I have read in at least the last ten years.


I'm sorry, but if you believe just building gcc is difficult, I cannot take you seriously. The entire process is streamlined, maybe if you somehow lost the makefiles, then I would believe you would be in deep trouble, but hey, you can always just open gcc repo and download it again. It is as simple as compiling any other program, and adding a pattern match + replace sequence (all tools are obviously linked already since that is what a parser does anyway) is child's play, since the code is relatively well written and documented.

Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:58 pm
by nervous
cybaster wrote:I see where you're going with this. But we're lacking the missing link in the grand malevolent design: How the fuck is kidney going to make money off of this project with the entire team he works with breathing down his neck?

That's why I don't buy it. Everybody's watching everybody now.


You're severely overestimating your abilities to read someone online. It's hard enough in person, online you're fucked. WK is going to profit off of LH.

He won't profit immediately, but down the road when this is further back in your head. It'll be after LH has been crowned the champion savior of all private servers that can do no wrong by a forum filled with retarded sycophants. It'll be after old developers and moderators burn out from the workload and are replaced by new, largely unvetted ones.

Do you know how easy it is to forge a completely new online persona and insert it into what was once a close knit group of people? Just takes a voice changer with some slight tuning.

Accept corruption as an inevitability, because it is. That way when something smells fishy, you can call it out for what it is ~6-9ish months before it actually goes public and stop wasting your time.