Lets talk 8/8 BF: PPM or flat %, also, correct %/PPM?

[bockhorm]

Hello,

I was wondering if someone yet has some details on 8/8 BF, whether it is a flat % or if its PPM based, whether the proc is properly scripter (i.e. if we can expect it to stay the way it is). Despite several sacrifices to the RNG-gods we only have 1 rogue with full BF and he seems be rocking 10 % proc chance as swords (viscock/CTS) which is downright i n s a n e imo. Even if the proc is PPM basd and we can expect same numbers as a dagger wielding rogue, it would seem that the proc is so good that it warrens using full BF even as a dagger rogue (and, I suppose use distracting dagger in OH). Does anyone have any details on this, and also, if so, is there any spreadsheet that correctly portrays this proc?

thanks in advance

[Youfie]

Yeah, from small samples Slices talked to me about, it seems to be about 10% proc rate, at least with Vis'kag or Brutality, which is basically 3 PPM. So we don't know if it's flat or PPM since I have no knowledge of other tests ran with different weapon speeds, but it's currently insanely broken on the server yeah, it should be around 1 PPM (sources are kinda hard to find, 1 PPM is what is suggested by Elitist Jerks & the way it was modeled during vanilla by Chalon's Spreadsheet).

[Setup]

ssshhhhhh

Bloodfang is fine.

[Slicy]

This needs to be tested by the ISVV team, not by players, because it requires very large sample with the same weapons, then with different weapons, and using the same way of collecting data to be able to draw the most accurate % and/or PPM.

Right now, depending on your sample sizes made with the same weapons, you can get results which vary from 4,5% to 10% depending on rng. (So between around 1 to 3 PPM basically).

How reliable would you (and the devs) consider the 1 PPM from the EJ thread ? We don't know what kind of testing and its conditions lead to this player-made conclusion.
Maybe he just took 1 PPM as the "worst case scenario" for modeling purposes in his sheet, we don't and can't know.
You can read in it that different rogues think it is worth 8, 10 or even 15 dps in raids. Its value probably varied a lot depending on the players' raiding environments, the sample sizes and weapons used as well.
You can read elsewhere in later-than-vanilla-patches people stating it's around 2,8%, another guy states 3%. Again, we don't know with what kind of weapons and under which circumstances.

1 PPM seems to usually be the value for character "enhancements" type of procs, like Crusader.
For procs which are directly dealing damage and/or apply a debuff, it is usually higher than 1 PPM, like Fiery Weapon & Lifestealing.
I would think BF falls into the 2nd category. So >1 PPM is what it should be.

Moreover, things which are PPM based are most of the time related to weapon enchants. The rest is either PPM or can also be flat proc rate (like HoJ & sword spec). Why wouldn't BF be a flat proc rate instead of PPM ? Is there any 100% reliable source saying it's PPM based even ?

The fact people would think/feel it's broken here could also be explained by external factors, such as the "chance on hit" mechanism working for misses/dodges/parries/etc., which is a reported & confirmed bug. So as long as this bug isn't fixed, you can't draw any conclusions regarding BF proc as a player doing couple testing samples in raids.
This bug alone is making every testing samples about "chance on hit" effects non accurate at all.

Then there is the difference between having 1 PPM in mind, and how you will feel it in game when you are tossing a "downright i n s a n e" amount of special attacks under a set period of time which will make you get a "downright i n s a n e" number of procs depending on luck and lead to such different results.

[Youfie]

There indeed seem to have no "100% trustworthy" source about Bloodfang proc rate on vanilla retail, but can there really be, for a proc rate?

I mean, the only thing absolutely reliable would be like screenshots of the procwatch AddOn showing a large sample size and monitoring the BF proc, done with different weapon speeds and shit.


However, there are corroborative sources that suggest that the 8/8 BF proc was about 1 PPM on retail, or a fixed proc-rate of 2-3% at best. None of them is 100% reliable, but lots of them can be regarded as pretty decent as to their trustworthiness (I'm looking at EJ posts referring to recap data during a whole BWL run).

The fact that BF proc is overpowered on Nostalrius shouldn't even be discussed. I mean, 10%+ proc rate, wtf :/.

The BF proc shouldn't have a 10% proc rate with people having to prove with 100% trustworthiness that it was different on retail. For such issues, it should be what it seems it was on retail (i.e. 1 PPM / 2-3% flat proc rate), and put back to 10% if any evidences were brought it was working this way (which will never happen lolilol).

Chalon's insight :
Chalon, (EJ contributor and author of the well-known Chalon's Combat Daggers and Combat Swords Spreadsheets), was modeling 8/8 BF as a 1 PPM proc (a comment even mentions a 1 PPM proc seems a bit high already, cf. EJ link below).


Elitist Jerks posts about 8/8 BF :

"The other thing I'm really curious about is the 8 piece BF proc - is it *really* worth 15 DPS? That seems very, very high for the little playing around I did with it on test.

[...]

It's a 2% proc rate, isn't it? If so, I think 15 dps may be correct. Hand of Justice procs a whole lot for me."


I'd have to check some really old recap data but it was never more than 1% of my DPS through a full BWL clear, at work right now however, but have a few old screens saved at home.

"
I alway consider BF 8/8 proc as about 10 dps (which is more or less the result of some bossfights with activated recap). Wouldn't call that scientific evidence, but thats how I treat it when considering what to equip."


WH comments :

"The 8 piece bonus proc's roughly 3%

I stuck with 8 piece for awhile until I had Boots of Shadowflame and Deathdealer Shoulders to make up for the proc."

"Several rogues in my guild have the full set, i am 6/8. according to them the proc doesnt proc nearly enough, they mostly use other items instead of the full set because they have more dps. Last week i tracked how many times it proced, turned out to be 2.8%."

"The 8 set bonus does not compensate for the dps you lose by using bloodfang boots/shoulders instead of using the ZG feet (blooddrenched? dunno) and ZG shoulders. This set is not worth getting as a whole set as any spec, however, the belt, bracers, head, gloves and chest are great and should be on the WTB-list of any rogue."

Grim second movie
Not really a source, but he wears 8/8 BF for quite some time in his second video. It doesn't give us any information on what the procrate was, but it definitely shows us it wasn't a 10%-ish proc rate like it currently is on Nostalrius. Even on such a small sample size, it would proc like crazy.

[TaurenRogue]

ssshhhhhh

this is why we cant have nice things

[Ohhgee]

Has been broken to proc like crazy on basically every private server ever.

[Slicy]

The thing is it's not a static 10%, it can vary from 4,5 to 10% depending on rng. Cut it in half. Strong, but not that overpowered.
The reason results aren't closer to 2-3% or what 1 PPM would give as proc rate depending on weap speed is that :

As long as the "chance on hit" mechanism as a whole isn't fixed, the testing, no matter the sample size(s), is flawed by a bug which buffs up every proc related things, even more so on a class with a high frequency of attacks, like rogue, and therefore getting procs from dodges, white misses and such which shouldn't happen.
Or proper testing would include every dodges, misses, etc. (so basically on every performed swing instead of just white & yellow hits & crits) to provide a way more accurate proc rate.

Would rather see fixes on this kind of mechanism impacting the game a lot more and on every class related bugs already reported (rip Blade Flurry never baguette 2015-2015) first honestly.

[Youfie]

The thing is it's not a static 10%, it can vary from 4,5 to 10% depending on rng. Cut it in half. Strong, but not that overpowered.
The reason results aren't closer to 2-3% or what 1 PPM would give as proc rate depending on weap speed is that :

As long as the "chance on hit" mechanism as a whole isn't fixed, the testing, no matter the sample size(s), is flawed by a bug which buffs up every proc related things, even more so on a class with a high frequency of attacks, like rogue, and therefore getting procs from dodges, white misses and such which shouldn't happen.
Or proper testing would include every dodges, misses, etc. (so basically on every performed swing instead of just white & yellow hits & crits) to provide a way more accurate proc rate.

Would rather see fixes on this kind of mechanism impacting the game a lot more and on every class related bugs already reported (rip Blade Flurry never baguette 2015-2015) first honestly.

We agree bugs affecting all classes should be fixed first, sure. But this thread is just about BF proc .

And yeah we might need more extensive testing on bigger samples to be sure how it currently works here. However 10% is imba-high, and the 4,5% is already far beyond what it apparently was, so it doesn't really matter, we know it's currently bugged.

[Youfie]

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