Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on MH?

Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on MH?

by Zelniq » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:06 pm

Does the off-hand Sword Specialization proc grant an extra attack with the Main Hand? Or does off-hand sword spec proc, just proc another off-hand hit?

I'm just wondering if it's working on this server, the way that "proper 1.12" is supposed to behave, according to this thread here: http://www.wow-one.com/forum/topic/2899 ... nd-in-112/
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Re: Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on

by Twist » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:53 am

According to this source the OH give a MH extra-attack.

The extra attack is normal melee swing (white attack) and is always done by the weapon in the main hand.
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Re: Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on

by Youfie » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:37 pm

Yes, both OH, MH and Special hits triggering Sword Specialization (or Thrash Blade or Hand of Justice..) triggers an extra hit from the MH, and the MH attack timer isn't reseted. This is how it was on retail (except for the attack timer that was reseted due to a bug for a long time). It works the same here.

You can check it ingame : duel a friend, use a Sword in OH with a damage range very different from your non-Sword MH (e.g. Dagger) and wait for the talent to proc (could take a while ^^) : you'll see the extra attack actually hitting for a different amount of damage than what it should. It can be quite hard to see though, especially cause the combatlog doesn't show the extra attack properly (it's a bug).
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Re: Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on

by Twist » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:31 pm

Youfie wrote:the MH attack timer isn't reseted.


Too bad, that was the only point that required a real master to be a good rogue sword.
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Re: Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on

by Youfie » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:22 pm

Twist wrote:
Youfie wrote:the MH attack timer isn't reseted.


Too bad, that was the only point that required a real master to be a good rogue sword.

Lol, how? Please explain :).
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Re: Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on

by Twist » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:49 pm

White hits are automatics, so the only thing that you can control are your SS and EVI, right ?

In the case where an extra-attack reset your swing you have to put your yellow hits just after your MH swing, by this way when an extra-attack proc on a yellow hit the swing's reset doesn't make you lose time before your next MH attack. You put more MH white hits in a fight, so you improve your DPS. And trust me there are a lot of extra-attacks with yellow hits during a fight :)

But we aren't concerned here according to your announcement.

Imo TC, dps rotation or cooldowns management are just shits to learn, that's the basic. But the extra-attacks improvement required to be aware, everytime !
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Re: Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on

by Youfie » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:03 pm

Twist wrote:White hits are automatics, so the only thing that you can control are your SS and EVI, right ?

In the case where an extra-attack reset your swing you have to put your yellow hits just after your MH swing, by this way when an extra-attack proc on a yellow hit the swing's reset doesn't make you lose time before your next MH attack. You put more MH white hits in a fight, so you improve your DPS. And trust me there are a lot of extra-attacks with yellow hits during a fight :)

But we aren't concerned here according to your announcement.

Imo TC, dps rotation or cooldowns management are just shits to learn, that's the basic. But the extra-attacks improvement required to be aware, everytime !

Lol, thank you for the clarifications :).

That's what I had in mind, altough I wouldn't think it would make that much of a difference - but who knows.

If one really wants to think this through, then you'd have to take into account the fact that you sometime would delay your SnD in order to time your SS properly and thus lose a little bit of SnD uptime for instance. Overall I guess it's pretty hard to modelize in whar extend SS/Evi. timing would benefit to your DPS if the MH timer was reseted.
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Re: Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on

by Netherfrost » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:01 pm

There is way more than what the average rogue would say there is to watch. Horde, adjustment to WF procs(+200ap), crusader procs, max energypool, swing movement, cd management (both the obvious one, but also AP fishing, do I wait 20 sec and hope for a crusader so on so forth), not using SnD without swings, the fact that you have to plan 20 seconds ahead all the time energy wise (and have a plan b ready for the 5.6 dodge chance) in order to effectivize not only your CPs but also cds in general. As each encounter is unique (but but most encounters are spank and tank, yes, but their HP also varies, and so should your CD usage, as long as the fight is longer than 2 mins, but below than you have a speed where you have to consider which boss is best to use the cds at etc).
Theorycrafting in general is what makes players realize they have to use boomstick rather than those scrub hitbows.. No rogue plays perfect...
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Re: Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on

by Youfie » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:33 pm

Netherfrost wrote:There is way more than what the average rogue would say there is to watch. Horde, adjustment to WF procs(+200ap), crusader procs, max energypool, swing movement, cd management (both the obvious one, but also AP fishing, do I wait 20 sec and hope for a crusader so on so forth), not using SnD without swings, the fact that you have to plan 20 seconds ahead all the time energy wise (and have a plan b ready for the 5.6 dodge chance) in order to effectivize not only your CPs but also cds in general. As each encounter is unique (but but most encounters are spank and tank, yes, but their HP also varies, and so should your CD usage, as long as the fight is longer than 2 mins, but below than you have a speed where you have to consider which boss is best to use the cds at etc).
Theorycrafting in general is what makes players realize they have to use boomstick rather than those scrub hitbows.. No rogue plays perfect...

I can definitely see what you mean with Crusader Procs, but how exactly do you "adjust" to a WF proc? What do you mean exactly? Even if I play Alliance it could be something worth knowing :).

Same question with "Swing movement" - seems kinda vague!
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Re: Does the off-hand Sword Spec proc grant an extra hit on

by Netherfrost » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:41 am

Youfie wrote:
Netherfrost wrote:There is way more than what the average rogue would say there is to watch. Horde, adjustment to WF procs(+200ap), crusader procs, max energypool, swing movement, cd management (both the obvious one, but also AP fishing, do I wait 20 sec and hope for a crusader so on so forth), not using SnD without swings, the fact that you have to plan 20 seconds ahead all the time energy wise (and have a plan b ready for the 5.6 dodge chance) in order to effectivize not only your CPs but also cds in general. As each encounter is unique (but but most encounters are spank and tank, yes, but their HP also varies, and so should your CD usage, as long as the fight is longer than 2 mins, but below than you have a speed where you have to consider which boss is best to use the cds at etc).
Theorycrafting in general is what makes players realize they have to use boomstick rather than those scrub hitbows.. No rogue plays perfect...

I can definitely see what you mean with Crusader Procs, but how exactly do you "adjust" to a WF proc? What do you mean exactly? Even if I play Alliance it could be something worth knowing :).

Same question with "Swing movement" - seems kinda vague!


My keyboard slamming before was indeed vague on some points, let me clarify:

WF has several mechanics you must adapt to, this is just some:
1) WF adds 200 ap overall (not procced hits only) for a very short amount of time, you must use your spenders in this period
2) I haven't done the extensive research which is needed on Nost, but 1 WF per MH swing might be a thing(or similar, a new WF cant be added before the one before ends, so on so forth), you musnt just spam all day long when you "burst" (empty energypool, at say crusader proc) as you might be landing more yellows than you should.
These are some of the reasons alliance rogue is more straight-forward and convenient, as on horde, you have even more things which affects the ideal time to use spenders.

Swing movement is somewhat minor, but the general idea is that you move at the end of a swing(s). Additionally, with max pool it also means you empty it just before (so you have to react before "everyone" else), if this is done very well, on some encounters, you will not lose any damage because of movement. This is also one of the reasons that similar speed weapons (yes.. slow OH aswell) is prefered in some cases. Having weapons which speed that dont add up (2.8 and 1.3 in contrary of take 1.3 and 2.6) means, the difference on your weapons results in you being unable to control them properly.
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