[Rogue] Pvp Spec debate

[lyrical]

Hello to everyone,

I made this thread to debate about, rogue pvp template, talk about burst, control, cooldowns ...

First, i will show you some classic template we used to play years ago.

1) Hemorrahe spec - 21 / 3 / 27 :

http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=1121 ... 0033212100

Lichuid alternative 22 / 3 / 26 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R4KWgtdxpA

Advantage :

- energy cost of hemo (wich allow you to manage energy easier to kick etc...).
- can burst with coldblood.
- good survability due to preparation, ghostly strike (+15% on evade/7sec).
- possiblity to do some trick with 4/5 camouflage (and restealth easier).
- you can use hemorrage in all position.
- good opener against stealthed.

Inconvencience :

- really big lack of burst without coldblood or huge stuff.
- applying poison is harder with a 2.60 / 2.70 /2.80 weapon speed.


2) sub dagger spec - 21 / 8 / 22 :

http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?tal ... 201303001e

Happymtinti 21 / 8 / 22 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYJHwKYILc

Advantage :

- big burst with backstab.
- big burst with coldblood.
- good opening burst with ambush (yeah drink mate..).
- good survability due to preparation, ghostly strike (+15% on evade/7sec).
- possiblity to do some trick with 2/5 camouflage (and restealth easier).
- applying poison is easier with the dagger speed.

Inconvencience :

- management of your energy, harder with a 60 energy skill.
- situational damage, you must be behind your target.

3) seal fate spec - 31 / 8 / 12 :

http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=1121 ... 3203p5502n

Stuck 31 / 8 / 12 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2DI7cvb9T4

Advantage :

- big burst with backstab more efficient than 21 / 8 / 22 due to imp Ks.
- big burst with coldblood.
- opening burst with ambush ( less effective than a 21 / 8 22 spec).
- seal fate (add combo point so easier management of your energy)
- applying poison is easier with the dagger speed.

Inconvencience :

- management of your energy, harder with a 60 energy skill, still easier with seal fate.
- situational damage, you must be behind your target.
- shit survability without prep.
- bad opener against stealthed class.



that's the 3 big template for pvp, you can of course change some points.


i will add one i really want to try, that's why i made this thread, what do you think about with the previous one?


3) hybrid shit spec - 31 / 8 / 12 :

http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=11215875_4

Advantage :

- big burst with backstab less efficient than 31 / 8 / 12 due to imp Ks.
- opening burst with ambush.
- applying poison is easier with the dagger speed.
- good survability Imp sprint, Imp kick, all defensive talent are 3.5 min instead of 5, less effective than prep)

Inconvencience :

- management of your energy, harder with a 60 energy skill, still easier with seal fate.
- situational damage, you must be behind your target.
- harder to do some trick without point in camouflage.
- bad opener against stealthed class.
- no burst with coldblood <---the real deal.

So i wanted to share that spec to speack about her with you guys, what do you think about ? habe you already try her.

ps: notice that the video are maybe not 1.12.1 but you can see the gameplay of those guys with those template.

[Silent]

Hi ²

All these spec were and are still viable, it's simply a matter of how you like to play.

- Are you a hit'n'run rogue ? So you go Seal Fate, you do PHAT burst and you vanish.
- A "support" rogue ? Then you spec Hemo, plenty of cd, huge survability, possibility of burst...
I personally played it through all vanilla, loved the large range of possibility, well-prepared assault (on plate), full burst (casters), full-evade-fuck-everyone-can't-catch-me (warsong flags) etc...
I even raided BWL as Hemo spec !
- A "real" rogue (WITH DAGGERS §§) ? Hybrid, good burst, good survability, great possibilities.
I tried this way when I was on Nostalrius 2 years ago.

You can add Sword Combat, even worst than SF, for Zerkers, but great Imp talents (Sprint & Kick). Efficient against armored...



Personally, I can't go PvP without 5/5 Cam, I'm played a lot stealthed, even for moving, surprise is essential for rogue, that's why we're not at full potential in a BG..


Unlike casters, gear is very important, so Hemo spec is better if we're not well geared.
Daggers spec needs stuff, and specifics things : energy (5/8 T1 is a must) and instant energy (tea, ZG trinket or even 4/8 D2). With these, you're beast. And unbalanced for others


But a good rogue is a player with reflexes and a brain, which can make a good use of all his skills, at the right moment and who is looking at everything that surround him to make profit of it. (MacGiver.)

[Hatson]

None of them put any points into Vile Poisons? - I dunno man..

[Drain]

I'd be interested in trying 21/0/30 with big slow weapons, no daggers. I'd use Hemo/Ghost as the strike, with Cold Blood for a 5p 15% Evis. 0/20/31 is another build that interests me, again with big weapons. This one has every CD reduction talent in the book with Dual Wield spec. I don't know how competitive these builds are, but they are things I'd be interested in trying out. After being forced to use daggers in Cata, I want to go back to using big weapons when I play this class again.

[lyrical]

Hi silent, glad to see we've got the same perception of our class, a smart "glass canon" !

Personally, I can't go PvP without 5/5 Cam, I'm played a lot stealthed, even for moving, surprise is essential for rogue, that's why we're not at full potential in a BG..

Same as me; even if i never put 5/5 Cam, at least 3 points are welcome, speed, sap trick(with imp sap) a must have.

Unlike casters, gear is very important, so Hemo spec is better if we're not well geared.

Agreed again, the main objective of a sub hémo spec, is just to reach 5Cp and kill someone with coldblood-eviscerate or classic stunlock. (basically)

Daggers spec needs stuff, and specifics things : energy (5/8 T1 is a must) and instant energy (tea, ZG trinket or even 4/8 D2). With these, you're beast. And unbalanced for others

That"s why i always find the dagger spec "weird" and unstable,
-1) you need more gear than a sub spec
-2) you need to be a lucky guy, cuz even with a lot of stuff, my Bs never crit twice on a fight....

But a good rogue is a player with reflexes and a brain, which can make a good use of all his skills, at the right moment and who is looking at everything that surround him to make profit of it. (MacGiver.)

agreed ofc, but not with McGiver, i hate Mcgiver.

None of them put any points into Vile Poisons? - I dunno man..

Hello Hatson,

That's a good point but i tell you why i never put points in Vile poisons.

The first reason is i play with 2 crippling poison (95% of the time, 5% with mindnubing on my slower weapon), i hate to lose the control of my target and playing a 21 3 27 spec, that's not easy sometimes to get poison's proc.

Second reason is i play mainly outside Bg, Brm, Felwood, Tyr's hand i love outdoor pvp.
In outdoor pvp people are less prepared than in a Bg or duel ( Totem, flare, dispel poisons, wolf/Bear form to avoid sap).

Third reason is, if the guy i fight had the time to dispel poisons that mean i dont do my job correctly (you can sap shaman for example break totem restealth and have a safe open with SnD up for 2-3 sec perfect to apply poisons at the beggining.)

Fourth reason is, we got a lot of skill that can breaf a cast, a kick, some stun Cs/Ks, and mezz effect gouge/blind, all those skill are able to counter a cast. ( + engineering, trinket )

Last reason is, we've got a huge burst class and we can take down really quicly a player without a bad Rng.

But i completely agree to with someone putting is points in vile poisons, i guess it depends on how u see your rogue and what do you plan to do with him (like silent said). In any case some points in Vile poisons are not wasted points.

I'd be interested in trying 21/0/30 with big slow weapons, no daggers. I'd use Hemo/Ghost as the strike, with Cold Blood for a 5p 15% Evis. 0/20/31 is another build that interests me, again with big weapons. This one has every CD reduction talent in the book with Dual Wield spec. I don't know how competitive these builds are, but they are things I'd be interested in trying out. After being forced to use daggers in Cata, I want to go back to using big weapons when I play this class again.

Hello Drain,

I played the 21 0 30 on retail, this spec is the same as 21 3 27 but for geared people.

21 3 27 allow you to tempo / restealth and regen energy via your gouge ability, give you more control of the fight and a better management of your energy to get a better burst on a 5combo Kidney Shot.

the 21 0 30 spec is pretty much the same but your gouge is less effective, and trust me it's hard to play without 3/3 imp gouge when you had it before.

about the 0 20 31 spec, i guess a lot of spec are playable depend again of your style (like silent said again), in my opinion i will never play my rogue without Ruthlessness and relentless strike cuz they are for me the "engine" of my gameplay.
well geared i guess malice and imp eviscerate won't miss you, but lethality (+30% damage with your main attack hemo is a huge loss) ruthlessness and relentless are some really important talent. (just my opinion)

[Silent]

The major issue to play without any points in assa (aka Ruthlessness & Relentless) is that the gameplay will lose all its explosivity. There will be ALOT of dead times, no more free CP after finishers, no more extra energy etc...
So you'll fall asleep playing, start to backped, clicking skills then reroll warlock. Bad idea.


For Hatson, we (a lot of PvP rogues) don't put points into Vile Poison is because, we're not in TBC and in majority of PvP situations, no one will try to dispell it. Vanilla is a matter of burst not like TBC, so you just can't loose your time trying to dispell, because if you do it, you or your target is dead.



Lyrical, I'm starting to think about respec Hemo when Nostalrius will hit release, but I don't know if they will raise our beta char from dead, so I don't know if I'll re-build another rogue or just stick as mage and praise for my terrible dwarf to be resurected...
I'm now playing on Feenix (BURN HIM!) as mage trying to learn how to play and not be absolutly terrible, but maybe I'll reroll an Hemo rogue to train.. You make me want to train again as hemo :°

On what side will you play on Nos ? Horde I believe ?

[lyrical]

Lyrical, I'm starting to think about respec Hemo when Nostalrius will hit release, but I don't know if they will raise our beta char from dead, so I don't know if I'll re-build another rogue or just stick as mage and praise for my terrible dwarf to be resurected...
I'm now playing on Feenix (BURN HIM!) as mage trying to learn how to play and not be absolutly terrible, but maybe I'll reroll an Hemo rogue to train.. You make me want to train again as hemo :°

On what side will you play on Nos ? Horde I believe ?

I dont think our char will raise from the dead like you said, normal for a fresh new start.

Weird thing is, since we loose our Cp when we switch of target i was thinking to spe dagger, but Hemo is such a good spec...

Second weird thing is i really think to roll a mage too, but not easy to quit the class you played for many years...

Normaly i will play horde, but i dunno, i like to play alone, so i will maybe chose the side with the less people

[Silent]

So if it's really a fresh start, I'll stick to rogue, can't find any class with much fun in vanilla... even mage. Maybe horde then, as I only played this side in TBC.. I never really leveled in Barrens, that's a shame !


CP reset wasn't functionnal on Nos Beta ? Can't remember ?

[lyrical]

I never really leveled in Barrens, that's a shame !

Yeah, the barrens are awesome, good pvp zone for low lv character with booty bay, the cross roards, the elf forest shit noth of the map...Good zone.

CP reset wasn't functionnal on Nos Beta ? Can't remember ?

Yep, they were bugged, you can target someone cheap shot him, blind another guy and comeback to your previous target without losung your Cp, like in Tbc in fact.

[venven]

CP reset wasn't functionnal on Nos Beta ? Can't remember ?

Yep, they were bugged, you can target someone cheap shot him, blind another guy and comeback to your previous target without losung your Cp, like in Tbc in fact.

This was fixed quite a long time ago, probably after you vanished