Nightninja's Melee Hunter Guide

[Lazermon]

In what way is a melee hunter a better option over having all of the offtanks not currently tanking do it?

Even if a offtank is using it that doesn't stop the hunter from proccing it, every argument on having a warrior or shaman do it doesn't make the hunter doing it bad. You could even have both if you want to argue that. That and a warrior is not always "not currently tanking". You build more threat with sword and board offtanking of course.

You still proc it just as much when someone else in the raid is using it.
Melee is better than ranging if you have 10+ casters in the raid.

*cough* arcane shot *cough*

Your "Melee is better than ranging if you have 10+ casters" argument assumes that the nigthfall proc will not be up unless you are doing it, this is obviously false on a majority of fights. Guilds bring around 4 tanks to every raid to handle a handful of encounters, and for the rest of the raid, most of those tanks don't do much at all.

You can argue that on some fights, the warriors will all be busy tanking, and therefore wont be able to keep the nightfall proc up. This is true for a meleeing hunter too.

Just to discuss BWL, on razorgore you are on kiting duty, on vael you risk getting the bomb, on firemaw you will need to run out more often than a offtank, on flamegor you need to be ready to tranq at all times, on chromag you need to be ready to tranq at all times and on nefarian you are taking a fear that the offtanks have the capability to dodge the majority of times.

I'm not against people having fun in an 11 year old game, but you seem to genuinely believe that you are bringing something to the raid that can't be done in any better way, and that the damage you sacrifice to do so is negligible compared to how much better you are at doing said thing over other alternatives.

[Theloras]

In what way is a melee hunter a better option over having all of the offtanks not currently tanking do it?

Even if a offtank is using it that doesn't stop the hunter from proccing it, every argument on having a warrior or shaman do it doesn't make the hunter doing it bad. You could even have both if you want to argue that. That and a warrior is not always "not currently tanking". You build more threat with sword and board offtanking of course.

You still proc it just as much when someone else in the raid is using it.
Melee is better than ranging if you have 10+ casters in the raid.

*cough* arcane shot *cough*

Your "Melee is better than ranging if you have 10+ casters" argument assumes that the nigthfall proc will not be up unless you are doing it, this is obviously false on a majority of fights. Guilds bring around 4 tanks to every raid to handle a handful of encounters, and for the rest of the raid, most of those tanks don't do much at all.

You can argue that on some fights, the warriors will all be busy tanking, and therefore wont be able to keep the nightfall proc up. This is true for a meleeing hunter too.

Just to discuss BWL, on razorgore you are on kiting duty, on vael you risk getting the bomb, on firemaw you will need to run out more often than a offtank, on flamegor you need to be ready to tranq at all times, on chromag you need to be ready to tranq at all times and on nefarian you are taking a fear that the offtanks have the capability to dodge the majority of times.

I'm not against people having fun in an 11 year old game, but you seem to genuinely believe that you are bringing something to the raid that can't be done in any better way, and that the damage you sacrifice to do so is negligible compared to how much better you are at doing said thing over other alternatives.

We're not saying that you don't also have the OT Warriors not using Nightfall when not tanking, but the fact of the matter is that a Hunter with a Nightfall can literally spam every global cd one of the abilities below for max Nightfall proc uptime forever:

Wing Clip
Rank 1
40 mana
Melee Range
Instant
Inflicts 5 damage and reduces the enemy target's movement speed by 50% for 10 sec.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=2974

Raptor Strike
Rank 1
15 mana
Melee Range
Instant
A strong attack that increases melee damage by 5.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=2973

PS Cysthen - try using Storm Gauntlets to see if they proc Nightfall as well since Arcane Shot is causing it to proc

[Cysthen]

We're not saying that you don't also have the OT Warriors not using Nightfall when not tanking, but the fact of the matter is that a Hunter with a Nightfall can literally spam every global cd one of the abilities below for max Nightfall proc uptime forever:

Wing Clip
Rank 1
40 mana
Melee Range
Instant
Inflicts 5 damage and reduces the enemy target's movement speed by 50% for 10 sec.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=2974

Raptor Strike
Rank 1
15 mana
Melee Range
Instant
A strong attack that increases melee damage by 5.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=2973

PS Cysthen - try using Storm Gauntlets to see if they proc Nightfall as well since Arcane Shot is causing it to proc

Your "Melee is better than ranging if you have 10+ casters" argument assumes that the nigthfall proc will not be up unless you are doing it, this is obviously false on a majority of fights. Guilds bring around 4 tanks to every raid to handle a handful of encounters, and for the rest of the raid, most of those tanks don't do much at all.

You can argue that on some fights, the warriors will all be busy tanking, and therefore wont be able to keep the nightfall proc up. This is true for a meleeing hunter too.

Just to discuss BWL, on razorgore you are on kiting duty, on vael you risk getting the bomb, on firemaw you will need to run out more often than a offtank, on flamegor you need to be ready to tranq at all times, on chromag you need to be ready to tranq at all times and on nefarian you are taking a fear that the offtanks have the capability to dodge the majority of times.

I'm not against people having fun in an 11 year old game, but you seem to genuinely believe that you are bringing something to the raid that can't be done in any better way, and that the damage you sacrifice to do so is negligible compared to how much better you are at doing said thing over other alternatives.

Okay first of all I use max rank rapter strike. Secondly yeah I understand the 4th tank can Nightfall sometimes. Even so he will be doing it in tank gear not haste/hoj gear. Yes it will proc. It will be up even more if you have a hunter doing it also. There is no argument. Both offtanks and hunters can do it to better the raid.

I kite Razorgore, then pop a fire prot pot and Nightfall the boss.

On Vael, I pop a fire prot pot and Nightfall the boss. (If you get the bomb, like any other melee? You run away).

Firemaw I stay out not because a Offtank can stay in more, I stay out because the casters are not on the boss the entire fight. They run in and out as well.

Those Drakes you can Tranq on you can easily time and run out.

I have also already addressed Chromag in a previous post if you want to go and read the comments. You can do the first tranq after the breath, go melee and let another hunter take the next tranq. Run out before breath and repeat on the next Tranq after that breath.

Our guild has killed Chromag now so I can safely say the tranqs are easily timed on that fight as well. You are acting like Frenzy is a complete and total random thing you can't prioritize running out for. A skilled Hunter should have no problem meleeing and tranqing on the drakes. Chromag is a different case because only one hunter can melee.

Also interesting comment about those gloves Theloras. Can you perhaps test that as well? I was just planning on getting Boots of the Shadow Flame and breaking my devilsaur with aq20 mana gloves/fankriss legs.

[Theloras]

Okay first of all I use max rank rapter strike. Secondly yeah I understand the 4th tank can Nightfall sometimes. Even so he will be doing it in tank gear not haste/hoj gear. Yes it will proc. It will be up even more if you have a hunter doing it also. Their is no argument. Both offtanks and hunters can do it to better the raid.

Also interesting comment about those gloves Theloras. Can you perhaps test that as well? I was just planning on getting Boots of the Shadow Flame and breaking my devilsaur with aq20 mana gloves/fankriss legs.

I'm not raiding anymore so alas I cannot...

but Ido know that both auto-attack and Seal/Judgement of Command are causing Storm Gauntlets and Fiery Plate Gauntlets to proc so I would imagine Nightfall should proc from them as well.

[Cysthen]

It would be odd to test that anyway. Unless it would proc before the gloves normally.

[Theloras]

It would be odd to test that anyway. Unless it would proc before the gloves normally.

I'm just saying that it would provide another opportunity for it to proc - but the combat log may or may not be able to differentiate.

[Cysthen]

I'm just saying that it would provide another opportunity for it to proc - but the combat log may or may not be able to differentiate.

It may or may not be worth it. With Wingclip I am pretty sure you get all the procs per minute and then force it to proc after that said minute, if those gloves could assist in forcing it to proc then it might be worth it.

I will work on getting those gloves and run some test with the combat log but no promises. I was looking forward to getting the AQ gloves on release and using higher rank Wingclips.

Even still if those gloves work it would not be worth using them unless I had Boots of the Shadow Flame, to break Devilsaur for hit cap.

[Theloras]

I'm just saying that it would provide another opportunity for it to proc - but the combat log may or may not be able to differentiate.

It may or may not be worth it. With Wingclip I am pretty sure you get all the procs per minute and then force it to proc after that said minute, if those gloves could assist in forcing it to proc then it might be worth it.

I will work on getting those gloves and run some test with the combat log but no promises. I was looking forward to getting the AQ gloves on release and using higher rank Wingclips.

Even still if those gloves work it would not be worth using them unless I had Boots of the Shadow Flame, to break Devilsaur for hit cap.

Nightfall
Binds when equipped
Two-hand Axe
187 - 282 Damage Speed 3.50
(67.0 damage per second)
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 60
Chance on hit: Spell damage taken by target increased by 15% for 5 sec.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19169

Spell Vulnerability
Melee Range
Instant
Spell damage taken by target increased by 15% for 5 sec.
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?spell=23605

I ran some tests earlier tonight swinging my Nightfall against mobs in EPL and it would appear that the Nightfall proc "Spell Vulnerability" seems to be able to proc from ANY damage you do against the target, including reflective damage from Retribution aura or from AoE damage from Consecration:

http://imageshack.com/a/img905/4143/j078X5.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img905/2505/lxuoFq.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img905/3669/aCZ9Z5.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img910/5127/x9PjZ1.jpg

My advice, get the gloves and increase the number of attacks/procs that you can dish out with each swing!

[Cysthen]

I'll work on getting the gloves and do some testing, perhaps just use conc and ret aura to see if it procs. Its a little odd on timing I believe in those pictures. Considering it never proc'd in between the fire damage and your auto attack. It could be all spells perhaps though. If you can screen shot (only) consecrate proccing it then I will take back my statement about it being better on a hunter than retribution because that spell does hit every second as well. Regardless you take 2 hunters to raids anyway and not all guilds run Retribution Paladins. Holy Paladins get Improved Might > Hunters have Trueshot Aura. Etc. Argument still says viable on Alliance. That and a lot of guilds don't like taking in hybrids because some guilds would argue it gives an inch and then other guildies might want to respec. Where as in the hunters case its not really a hybrid spec. You still show up as Trueshot Marksman spec. Its just happens to be that Nightfall in certain situations is better dps.

[Theloras]

I'll work on getting the gloves and do some testing, perhaps just use conc and ret aura to see if it procs. Its a little odd on timing I believe in those pictures. Considering it never proc'd in between the fire damage and your auto attack. It could be all spells perhaps though. If you can screen shot (only) consecrate proccing it then I will take back my statement about it being better on a hunter than retribution because that spell does hit every second as well.

ok sit tight - will do some more testing without me auto attacking - just ret aura and cons