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Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:04 pm
by Wosser
For a proper calculation, you cant ignore the ISB uptime or the spelldmg scaling of life tab.

Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:15 am
by Thefilth
Wosser wrote:For a proper calculation, you cant ignore the ISB uptime or the spelldmg scaling of life tab.


Mhm. I've done the math for both and depending on 1roll, 2roll and doublehitcheckISB for both, and your current hit/crit percentages, the results vary.

Generally, crit > hit > 15 spelldamage, but once your crit levels get high enough (~25%, depending on your %hit), crit = hit (1roll mechanics) or hit > crit (2roll mechanics).

Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:47 pm
by Botmaster5
Thefilth wrote:Generally, crit > hit > 15 spelldamage, but once your crit levels get high enough (~25%, depending on your %hit), crit = hit (1roll mechanics) or hit > crit (2roll mechanics).

this is just wrong. spellcasting is a 2 roll system (check links in OP), and at no point is crit > hit (unless hit is capped @ 16%) for raw dps. there is a reason why, when they went to the rating system instead of flat %s, that 1 hit is worth 8 rating and 1 crit is worth 14 rating @ lvl 60. hit is weighted heavier because it is the superior stat.

Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:23 pm
by Guybrush
Botmaster5 wrote:
Thefilth wrote:Generally, crit > hit > 15 spelldamage, but once your crit levels get high enough (~25%, depending on your %hit), crit = hit (1roll mechanics) or hit > crit (2roll mechanics).

this is just wrong. spellcasting is a 2 roll system (check links in OP), and at no point is crit > hit (unless hit is capped @ 16%) for raw dps. there is a reason why, when they went to the rating system instead of flat %s, that 1 hit is worth 8 rating and 1 crit is worth 14 rating @ lvl 60. hit is weighted heavier because it is the superior stat.

At 0% hit: Crit is better until 15% crit, then its worse.
At 4% hit (bloodvine): Crit is better until 18% crit.

This discussion is pretty pointless, all the hit pieces currently in the game are obviously superior to their alternatives.

Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:04 pm
by Numi
Guybrush wrote:This discussion is pretty pointless, all the hit pieces currently in the game are obviously superior to their alternatives.


It's pointless in a scenario when you're entire guild is fully geared and you're boosting 1 single raider to pick what loot he wants, but it's entirely relevant for all of us who actually raid with other people who also need gear, so to optimize loot, you want to put a weight on how much damage upgrades give and one really important part here is the discussion about BWL weapons:

Staff of Shadow Flame vs Claw of Chromaggus + ZG offhand. Staff is better if crit is close, equal or better, while the ZG offhand is better if hit is better.

Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:10 pm
by Wosser
82 spelldmg and 1% hit are never better than 84 spelldmg and 2% crit.

Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:50 am
by Cousy
There are so many variables to maximizing warlock DPS. I agree that this conversation is mostly just someone wanting to prove that, in a vacuum, hit is better than crit. However, when you start taking a lot of stuff into account like the number of warlocks your raid typically takes and then figuring out how to maximize uptime for Imp Shadow Bolt or start thinking ahead and not assuming you'll be running every boss fight in the game with the Ony + DM or Songflower buff or calculating all your consumables, you realize you can't just say flatly that the "argument is over".

The only item to item comparison that makes this idea even somewhat justified is comparing t2.5 helm and Mish'undare because the starts are so close. http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21337 vs. http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19375 . Outside of this instance, I think this whole discussion is pretty pointless. If you really think your itemization is correct, you can prove it on raidstats.

Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:16 pm
by sumail
Warlocks take the tier 2.5 helm, mages take mishundares.

Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:14 am
by Setup
Yeah, if you're unfortunate enough to be part of an o-loot guild where your loot is decided by someone who doesn't understand the game they're playing, that's true.

Sucks for those people.

Re: Spell Hit vs Spell Crit: The argument is over.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:47 am
by sumail
Setup wrote:Yeah, if you're unfortunate enough to be part of an o-loot guild where your loot is decided by someone who doesn't understand the game they're playing, that's true.

Sucks for those people.


Just saying it makes more sense since warlocks have more trouble getting hit compared to mages.