Hand of Justice, Maelstrom value

[Youfie]

I can confirm that DMC:M has 1 PPM proc chance on Nostalrius. Tested and confirmed it with 1.6 & 2.8 weapons and ProcWatch AddOn on several thousands of hits each.

A Druid friend of mine tested it in cat form and he told me he got a VERY small amount of procs. He didn't record anything, he just told it was a "feeling", but this makes me believe the PPM proc chance isn't calculated from the Druid 2H weapon.

That would have been insane, having a slow 2hander being used to calculate the PPM proc chance, and then being able to proc it every second in caform. So it need to be confirmed, but it seems the 1.00 caform attack speed is used for PPM-based procs, makin this trinket not better / overpowered for a Druid as it would have been if the weapon speed had been used.

Regarding the procrate, nbody can say for sure how it was during retail, but actually 1 PPM makes it a decent trinket pre-BiS or for PvP (especially has a Hemo Rogue with a slow MH, due to the proc chance being a PPM).

The sources regarding this trinket proc-rate on retail are actually quite different from each other, some of them suggest a PPM-based thing, some other just state a flat proc rate without any information about the way it was calculated or the weapon speed used etc., it's actually not that simple to know how it worked exactly.

In my opinion 1 PPM seems to be something close to what it was on retail: a nice trinket, in PvP or low-tier PvE, especially when Dual Wielding, but with better alternatives.

For a Rogue, having the DMC:M will yield just as much procs as Crusader prods if they had 1x Cruader enchant on each hand for instance (since Crusader is 1 PPM too).

PPM was not a thing in Vanilla. Procs could proc off themselves, these were all static based %, so the more special abilities you did gave you more procs.

You are spreading false information :'(.

PPM was a thing in Vanilla. Just not the way you might be thinking of it. You are right, the actual 'Proc Per Minute' mechanic that meant "this proc has an internal cool down" was added later, but in Vanilla, many enchants and procs (possibly the DMC:M too, if you read above), used a 'Vanilla-PPM' mechanic, if I may say.

A proc having 1 PPM in Vanilla just means that if all your swings hit the target and you only auto-attack, you'd have 1 proc per 60 second of fight, in average. Thus, special abilities being instant and the same proc chance being used for them, a slow MH weapon gives a lot more procs than a fast one for 'Vanilla-PPM' procs.

The only limited proc item in Vanilla days was crusader enchant, and it wasn't long. It was implemented to help avoid stacking of crusader..

Crusader was indeed using a PPM mechanic. But the 'Vanilla PPM' one described above. There was absolutely no internal cool down on Crusader, you could proc it twice, whether from the same weapon or not. And this is the same for most enchantments in Vanilla (Fiery, Lifestealing).

Just see http://rogerkarlsson.com/blogs/wow/crusader/ or watch any video and you'll see it was possible to get two crusader prods in a row, even from the same weapon.

[Undertanker]

So because you redefined proc per minute means it is a term in vanilla? No, that is bull.


Proc per minute was a term for internal global cooldown effects. You've tried to correct me on many threads with this. And say I spread false information while you invent terms and discredit people, followed up with what ever the hell you want to invent followed " if I may say."

if I may say. = not backed up opinions you formulate that sound better to you.

If it doesn't have an internal global cooldown, then it is a static chance. PERIOD. Not a proc per minute.

Crusader did have a PPM, and you could have them stack, but it wouldn't refresh itself keeping them stacked. It was about a 32 second built in delay.

Theory crafters may term PPM, and have been for a long time, but is not a relative term for Vanilla.

PPM means no matter what moves I'm doing, in 1 minute of attacking an effect/proc will be up for a certain amount of that minute, or trigger a max of X amount of times in a minute. Getting more abilities/hits into a 1 min parsed window doesn't effect much, as the ability caps itself.

Dealing with static proc rates, if something procs 3% of the time, end of story. You did 1 more, it had 3%, second move (even if first procced the ability) 3%, if you do more moves in lesser time, you with the magic power of linear math, gives you more chances of procs/uptime. Increasing the hits you do does not make it a PPM, even if you parse 1 minute of data. It is still a static chance.


So you can quit following me and trying to discredit facts with TBC + chit chat...... if I may say.

[Youfie]

Hey,

I am sincerely sorry if you interpreted my post, or any other that I may have posted in the past, as offensive to you. I meant no disrespect in any way.

You just happened to say things that I thought were incorrect, and wanted to correct them.
My dearest apologies if my tone sounded irreverent.

Actually it might be just a big misunderstanding, because there is indeed something completely counterintuitive using the term "PPM" when referring to Crusader.

So because you redefined proc per minute means it is a term in vanilla? No, that is bull.

Proc per minute was a term for internal global cooldown effects. You've tried to correct me on many threads with this. And say I spread false information while you invent terms and discredit people, followed up with what ever the hell you want to invent followed " if I may say."

Actually no, I didn't redefined that myself, this term just happens to be used quite a lot, even though it refers to procs that aren't based on a true "PPM" mechanic, as you rightfully highlighted.

If it was up to me, I'd call that "Static proc chance defined by the speed of the weapon it is triggered by", but since I saw the term PPM being used in basically all the instances in which I've seen information about the Crusader enchant, I took the habit to use it too, knowing that it wasn't a "true" PPM mechanic. Crusader (as well as many other procs) is just a static-chance proc, except this static chance depends on the weapon on which the enchantment is applied.

if I may say. = not backed up opinions you formulate that sound better to you.

I just refered to it as "Vanilla PPM" earlier, the "If I may say" was just to point out that the term PPM is indeed quite deceiving.

If it doesn't have an internal global cooldown, then it is a static chance. PERIOD. Not a proc per minute.

I fully agree with you on that point. The "PPM" term is improper to describe a proc such as Crusader. And yet most people use it and just know that they're not talking about an "actual" PPM as it existed in later expansions. It's just a matter of vocabulary really.

Crusader did have a PPM, and you could have them stack, but it wouldn't refresh itself keeping them stacked. It was about a 32 second built in delay.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean above. It seems you're saying that on retail if you had a Crusader proc from the same weapon twice in say, 10 seconds, then the Holy Strength buff wouldn't be refreshed to its 15-second duration?

I never thought of (or heard of) a delay during which a Crusader proc could happen, but not actually affect the player.

If this is what you mean, I beg to differ.

Crusader could proc twice in a row on retail (and so does it on Nostalrius) : if the proc was from the same weapon, the duration would be refreshed. If it was from a different weapon, you would get another buff with its own duration and it wouldn't refresh the first buff, but you would get an additional +100 Strength.

On the 2006 blog that I posted a link to earlier, the guy who tested Crusader clearly sates that two procs in a row would refresh the buff duration.

You can also check it in the actual combat log files of his tests that are downloadable in a .zip file from the same page.
In WoWCombatLog-2.txt, at 11h18min13s, we can see this guy gained the Holy Strength buff ; at 11h18min24s, he gets another Crusader proc, and the "Holy Strength fades from you." message doesn't appear until 11h18min40s, which is 15 seconds after the buff was refreshed (there is a marginal difference actually).

It can also be seen in Grim's second movie for instance: although it's rather unclear (speed is x3), we can see a Crusader proc at 9'32'', and another one at 9'34'' which refreshes the duration. Same things happens at 9'55'' & 9'58''.

The old Saerdna video from early Vanilla also shows a Crusder proc from the same hand twice in a row that refreshes its own duration in a much clearer way : there's a proc at 5'28'' and another one at 5'31'', and you can definitely see the duration being refreshed under the buff icon.

Theory crafters may term PPM, and have been for a long time, but is not a relative term for Vanilla.

PPM means no matter what moves I'm doing, in 1 minute of attacking an effect/proc will be up for a certain amount of that minute, or trigger a max of X amount of times in a minute. Getting more abilities/hits into a 1 min parsed window doesn't effect much, as the ability caps itself.

Dealing with static proc rates, if something procs 3% of the time, end of story. You did 1 more, it had 3%, second move (even if first procced the ability) 3%, if you do more moves in lesser time, you with the magic power of linear math, gives you more chances of procs/uptime. Increasing the hits you do does not make it a PPM, even if you parse 1 minute of data. It is still a static chance.

Then again, I fully agree with you, see above.


If this conversation needs to be pursued, I hope it can be done with politeness, now that I made clear I meant no harm towards your person.


Regards,


Youfie.

[Brion]

So because you redefined proc per minute means it is a term in vanilla? No, that is bull.


Proc per minute was a term for internal global cooldown effects. You've tried to correct me on many threads with this. And say I spread false information while you invent terms and discredit people, followed up with what ever the hell you want to invent followed " if I may say."

if I may say. = not backed up opinions you formulate that sound better to you.

If it doesn't have an internal global cooldown, then it is a static chance. PERIOD. Not a proc per minute.

Crusader did have a PPM, and you could have them stack, but it wouldn't refresh itself keeping them stacked. It was about a 32 second built in delay.

Theory crafters may term PPM, and have been for a long time, but is not a relative term for Vanilla.

PPM means no matter what moves I'm doing, in 1 minute of attacking an effect/proc will be up for a certain amount of that minute, or trigger a max of X amount of times in a minute. Getting more abilities/hits into a 1 min parsed window doesn't effect much, as the ability caps itself.

Dealing with static proc rates, if something procs 3% of the time, end of story. You did 1 more, it had 3%, second move (even if first procced the ability) 3%, if you do more moves in lesser time, you with the magic power of linear math, gives you more chances of procs/uptime. Increasing the hits you do does not make it a PPM, even if you parse 1 minute of data. It is still a static chance.


So you can quit following me and trying to discredit facts with TBC + chit chat...... if I may say.

People used the term PPM in vanilla even though there were no internal cooldowns. I know, I argued with them back then and it was a fruitless endeavor. It is much easier to interpret than to say "percentage chance based on weapon speed." It's not the most accurate way to describe the effects, but it's close enough for most people to understand. If the percentage chance based on weapon speed will net 3 procs in a minute on average, that's roughly the average PPM you will get. In a 5 minute fight with 3 "vanilla" PPM, you may end up with 10 (unlucky) or 20 (lucky), but taking that same fight dozens of times, the average will be 15 procs.

[Warrax22]

The term PPM was based on auto attack. Crusader would proc, on average, 1 proc per minute using auto attack with any weapon speed. It has no cooldown, it can refresh and can stack if you have it on both weapons (to those that dual wields). We all know that because of special attacks, Crusader is way more than 1ppm, that's why they invented the term Real PPM in... MoP I think, or Cata, I don't remember exactly when RPPM was introduced.