Shaman tank Talent build

Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Dr. Doom » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:38 am

Derkz wrote:I used a mace until I realized I had trouble holding aggro. I switched over to using a dagger (I have flurry so when it procs, it brings me almost down to 1.00 weapon swing) and have noticed a dramatic difference. Rockbiter works off how many times you hit the opponent to add threat. So slower weapons would endanger that pathetic mage pewpewing frostbolts in the corner while something really quick (dagger) keeps the focus on you. I also use stoneclaw for multiple targets to distract them while I tab all of them to get my rockbiter swings in as well as earthshock as a form of taunt to get them to focus on me. If all else fails, I use warstomp to buy me some extra time to gain back aggro. I just recently gained stormstrike so I don't have a lot of experience with it. I mainly use it to add a boost in damage, but since it adds an extra swing it probably helps with aggro.


Perfect, I currently have a 1.50 dagger and was wondering if exploring higher weapon dmg was worth it, now I know. Thanks a lot for your help.
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Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Limmp » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:56 am

Could you make a video on how it looks and give me a link to your amory so i can check out your gear? :)
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Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Aethelwulf » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:43 pm

Honestly just about any class can instance tank. Raid tanking as a Shaman is generally an awful idea but iirc someone has actually successfully tanked C'thun with a Shaman back in vanilla. If you are going to try raid tanking, the one place where I could see a Shaman tank is playing the caster tank for Twin Emps, given Elemental Warding and Tauren health. If you're going to play Tank Shaman, make sure to play a Tauren Shaman for that +5% max health (also Tauren War Stomp is amazing for PvP).

Dr. Doom wrote:Question about rockbiter: Is the additional threat a flat addition to each swing, or is it a multiplicative addition depending on AA dmg?

In other words, is it better to use fast weapons that while doing less dmg per individual swing would utilize the bonus threat more often; or is it better to get slower weapons that by doing higher dmg, also get a higher bonus threat added to them?

Derkz wrote:I used a mace until I realized I had trouble holding aggro. I switched over to using a dagger (I have flurry so when it procs, it brings me almost down to 1.00 weapon swing) and have noticed a dramatic difference. Rockbiter works off how many times you hit the opponent to add threat.

No. Rockbiter gives 72 threat per second by scaling the threat per hit to your weapon's base attack speed. A 1.5 second weapon gives gives 72*1.5=108 threat per swing. However, a faster weapon will crit more often and give you better uptime on your Flurry and that will translate into more threat per second.

To boost your Rockbiter threat per second, your methods are boosted attack speed (ie. flurry) and extra attacks. A high parry chance also pays dividends since a successful parry reduces your swing timer. The best weapon for Rockbiter tanking is therefore Ironfoe since it has somewhere around a 17% chance of proccing two bonus hits which means it deals 1.34x the regular Rockbiter aggro per second. The bonus hits also translate into a higher proc per minute for enchants like Crusader or Lifestealing or Fiery or whatever. Failing Ironfoe, you can use a Flurry Axe (which is a BoE world drop, so basically use the AH), and it helps to equip a Hand of Justice.

Bear in mind that once your weapon DPS breaks something like 180, you will probably get more threat just from bonus Windfury damage than from using Rockbiter. That's the real problem with Rockbiter tanking: You will usually obtain comparable if not better threat with WF. If you're enhance spec, there's probably no point in using Rockbiter unless you really like the Ghost Wolf autoattack damage.

Thatoneguy wrote:- A Shaman tank can't go all out on all his spells because it costs too much mana. A Shaman tank will mostly be using Rockbiter weapon + ES during fights.

- Imp Lightning Shield is very good for PvP but terrible for dungeon tanking. The upkeep costs way too much mana which makes you go oom during fights. You don't want to be 'that guy' that the group has to constantly wait for. Using Lightning Shield often will make you into 'that guy'.

You can downrank spells for lower mana consumption if that's an issue. So long as the spell requires at least level 20, it gets full spell damage coefficients.

- Gaurdian totems is trash compared to Imp Ghost Wolf. Never skip out on Imp Ghost Wolf if the option is available. The only earth totem you will use is Strength Totem because it helps with threat and blocking. The -2 seconds on Grounding isn't worth it either.

For PvE Grounding is probably not too relevant, but if you're considering PvPing, -2 seconds is godlike. You're also overlooking the benefit of Grace of Air for tanking. 77 agility = +154 armor and +3.85% dodge chance.
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Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Dr. Doom » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:52 pm

Alright guys, kept tinkering with my talent build options, and decided to examine Guardian Totems 2/2 vs Enhancing Totems 2/2.

Working on my notepad, these are the results I get, going to copy/paste. I personally tested the influence of agi on crit, dodge and armor to make sure they work like this on the server:

Guardian Totems +20%

Total:

Stoneskin: -30 melee * 0.2+ = -36 melee
Windwall: -64 range * 0.2+ = -76.8 ranged

Talent contribution:

-6 melee incoming damage
-12.8 ranged incoming damage



Enhancing totems +15%

Total:

Strength of Earth: +61 str * 0.15+ = 70.15 str
Grace of Air: +67 agi * 0.15+ = 77.05 agi


Talent contribution:

9.15 str / 10.05 agi

9.15 str = 18.3 AP = 1.30 DPS
= 0.4575 Block Value

10.05 agi = 1% crit
= 20 armor
= 1% dodge


I am using the max rank of totems to calculate this, meaning Strength of Earth IV, Stoneskin VI, Grace of Air II and Windwall III.

Given that Windwall Totem will rarely be of use for tanking (ranged mobs are scarce and practically all of them switch to melee mode once you stand in front of them), the choice really ends up being -6 dmg from melee sources vs 1.30 DPS +1% crit +1% dodge and token additions to armor and block value.

Thatoneguy was right, Guardian Totems is minimally useful. Enhancing Totems seems like a good place to allocate talents on the other hand.
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Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Aethelwulf » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:00 pm

Actually for Shamans it's 19.55 agi for 1% crit according to wow wiki. Grace of Air is 77 agi base, which means 88.55 agi talented.
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Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Dr. Doom » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:03 pm

Aethelwulf wrote:Actually for Shamans it's 19.55 agi for 1% crit according to wow wiki.


Then this server works differently. I tested this extensively adding/removing agi gear, and then comparing it with the crit chance. No matter how much I added/removed (was testing to see if the function is curved), the result always was 1 agi = 0.1% crit. Same with dodge.

The last rank from Grace of Air learnt from the trainer is the one I used.
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Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Aethelwulf » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:06 pm

Aye, AQ drops another rank.

If this server is giving 1% dodge and 1% crit for 10 agi it's doing it horribly wrong since it should be 20 agi for 1% crit and 19.697 agi for 1% dodge. On the other hand, apparently AGI is an abnormally good stat for Shamans to gear now.
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Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Dr. Doom » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:44 pm

Aethelwulf wrote:Aye, AQ drops another rank.

If this server is giving 1% dodge and 1% crit for 10 agi it's doing it horribly wrong since it should be 20 agi for 1% crit and 19.697 agi for 1% dodge. On the other hand, apparently AGI is an abnormally good stat for Shamans to gear now.


Seems so, I was thinking that myself, with this in mind, it seems hunter designed pieces become incredibly good. They have agility for the crit and dodge, and the green +AP takes care of the lack of strength. Only Block Value ends up suffering if you follow that item route.

You're welcome to test the crit/dodge ratios, I would actually appreciate someone confirming it. I essentially just removed/equipped rings, necks, gear pieces with agility, calculated how much I was adding/removing, and then contrasted the before and after numbers of dodge and crit chance by going to the General tab of my Spellbook and putting my mouse over the Dodge and Attack (since it displays crit) buttons.
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Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Baby Seal » Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:56 pm

So I'm trying this out, and I plan to stick with it. I have speced in to some "no no" talents (2/2 guardian totems and stone skin totem) and am having issues with threat building (been using a mace in stead of a dagger) and surviveability, ironically!

I ran WC at level 18, turned 19, and it got pretty ugly. I was discouraged because the party was basically saying I need to reroll if I'm going to tank. I think a sweet spot (at least for shaman tanks) is 3 item levels above the minimum level requirement for the dungeon (running RFC before level 16 was similarly rough). Engineering bombs are nice for initial aoe threat, though sustainability has been where i run into problems.

I am interested in trying a build with Ancestral Healing when I get the talent points for it. The theory would be to spec in to 5/5 IHW and spam rank 1 HW at a 1 second cast, (stacking some int), before pulls. If threat is still a problem by the time I get there I may go deeper ele instead for reverb etc.
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Re: Shaman tank Talent build

by Dr. Doom » Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:34 pm

Another debate.

Having 3 points left to spend, with a base 16/32/0 build (http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#hE0zxZVV0bExuz), the options are:

- Elemental Warding
- Eye of the Storm (recommended by thatoneguy)
- Elemental Devastation
- Weapon Mastery

I don't have any math on me to work it out but just theorically speaking it seems the pros and cons would go like this:

Elemental Warding:

-Pros: 0.90 ratio to magic dmg (Shadow and Arcane excepted, there's no substantial holy dmg in vanilla, like Maiden of Virtue in Karazhan). Since fire/frost/nature dmg is not mitigated by armor, this would actually give an edge to shaman mitigation that other tanks could only try to replicate by getting resistance gear.

-Cons: Talents are rendered useless during physical fights whether trash or bosses, which are the majority in the game. Shadow attacks, like the demons of Darkwhisper Gorge or Tainted Scar have or some undead instances, keep hitting for a 1.0 ratio.

Eye of the Storm (Thatoneguy's suggestion):

-Pros: Since shamans will get crit (mail items with defense aren't common at all), the Focused Casting effect would happen certainly. It would be then possible to cast a chain lightning for some AoE attention, or perhaps a self heal when it really came down to it.

-Cons: The only moments when you'd use Focused Casting to self heal are those when things aren't going too well anyway. Heal threat from a healing wave won't be that much, and due to no resto talents, the healed amount won't be that substantial. If anything seems it could delay the inevitable.
Chain lightning: Due to Lightning Mastery being impossible to get, the cast time will be 2.5 secs. Chain Lightning can only affect 3 targets, so large packs won't really be able to be held just with this. There is no threat modifier for it, and the 2nd and 3rd target only receive 70% and 40% of the spell dmg. I wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient to simply tab/auto attack with rockbiter (or with windfury), instead of taking 2.5 secs out to cast this. Uncertain results, need further practise or math.


Elemental Devastation.

- Pros: +9% crit for 10 seconds could result in near total flurry uptime for the 10 seconds the effect lasts. Assuming something like 25% crit from thundering strikes + agi + gear, the crit chance would be 34% for the duration of Elemental Devasation, or namely 1/3 hits. With Flurry giving increased attack speed for 3 swings, there's a fairly good deal of overlap between the 2 numbers, allowing, like I said, for near total uptime for the duration of the effect.

- Cons: Elemental Devastation requires a Shock crit to begin with. With intellect being sidelined in favour of other stats, spell crit chance from stats won't be too high, adding a couple of +spell crit items could potentially help for that (at the expence of mitigation/physical stats), but the point remains that at 5 second cd on Earth Shock (assuming 5/5 reverberation), I'd guess that there would be an average of 1-2 Earth Shock crits per minute (testing/mathematical confirmation needed). Uptime on Elemental Devastation will then oscillate, on average, between 1/6 (one crit per minute = 10 secs/60 secs) and 1/3 (2 crits per minute in such a way that they allow for the 10 sec duration from each to last its full duration) of the time. Not terrible, but not too great.


Weapon Mastery:

- Pros: Reliable, constant increase in physical dmg from autoattack. It would work better in tandem with Windfury weapon rather than Rockbiter weapon since Aethelwulf's information is that the +threat on the latter is added irrespectively of the dmg being done, while this +dmg talent would have more repercussions in the multiple swings given by Windfury.

- Cons: 3/5 Weapon Mastery only adds 6% dmg from physical weapons. Earth shock isn't affected. Crit chance (and therefore Flurry) isn't affected. Although reliable and not subject to RNG, it might be too minor in the end to really amount to much.


----------------------------------------

As things stand right now, I'm currently leaning for Elemental Devastation. Although the uptime on the +9% crit will be a third or less of the time, those moments could provide for really good threat generation, that is applicable both for trash and for boss tanking. RNG being what RNG is, will undoubtedly provide for frustrating moments when the thing doesn't seem to crit at all.

Eye of the Storm-Chain Lightning tandem could add something in terms of trash tanking (non-factor for single target/boss tanking), but to be fair, I think that if it's just 3 targets, I might actually be better off quickly changing targets and autoattacking with my higher flurry uptime coming from Elemental Devastation. In 2.5 secs I will certainly be able to hit 2 of them, so the only real difference I see from devoting this time for Chain Lightning would be the 40% dmg done to the third target. Even then, I find that Darkz suggestion of using Stoneclaw totem as a time tactic to distract secondary targets while you autoattack them, might end up being even better anyway.

Elemental Warding seems really good, yet really niche. For most of the content in 5 mans/UBRS it will not be of use, and not having arcane/shadow reduction means it's not even entirely good vs magic. If I were to start doing instances where Fire/Frost/Nature is consistent for at least a good portion of the mobs, it would probably be better to have it though.

Weapon Mastery seems too little to matter.

--------------------------------
Other options considered:


Ancestral Knowledge: +3% mana might allow to squeeze in 1 extra Earth Shock for long fights. Not sure.

Earth's Grasp: Referring to Darkz suggestion regarding Stoneclaw totem. Might be too little of an HP increase, but could be useful at times.

Improved Lightning Shield: Higher thorn dmg, more threat. At the last rank, it means 23 extra dmg per orb.
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