Shaman tank Talent build

[Dr. Doom]

Update:

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Dungeon runs, feedback:

SFK at level 26. Ran it several times since I wasn't entirely pleased with my first go, also allowed to gather the shield, ring and Meteor Shard.
BFD at level 27. One time since I got all that I needed and felt satifisfied with my results.

Both times had DPS my own level. For the previous entry-level dungeons I had tried to keep them a couple of levels below me just to be able to cope with their dmg while I practised. This time I decided to go for it properly. Single target is never an issue, which means boss fights rarely give me any trouble. BFD trash is pretty easy to handle, even if the disarm on satyrs hurts your rockbiter weapon threat (since you can still lightning shield + shock them, it doesnt punish you as severely as it does a warrior). The turtle pull at the altar just before Aku'mai seems like the only real potential problem I found, since 4 targets, all of which have a chance to knockback can be a bit of a problem. 1 or 2 CC renders it easy nonetheless.

SFK though: The magic immune shield worgen occasionally cast makes them immune to your Earth Shock as well as your Lightning Shield. Shocking them while casting it doesn't interrupt. My advice is to cast the spell early on, and then rely on rockbiter. Most of the dungeon from beginning till Odo is largely uneventful, only Odo's fight (having 2 bat adds pulled with him) requires you to do proper multitarget control. The packs leading to Fenrus, and the fight with Nandos though, will be your real test. The pull in the first tower room that has 2 horrors and 2 worgen requires you to stoneclaw, and if tauren, warstomp. You need to not only control the 4 targets but also be able to coordinate your team to burst the horrors before delusions get out of hand and kill your healer. Nandos' fight is uneventful at first, but by summoning ads when he's at low health, one of which is a Lupine Horror, the team must either CC the new wolves, or switch DPS to the horror. Hard to pull off since pug DPS generally don't do on-the-fly CC, and getting them to stop bursting the boss and go for the snowball add isn't that easy.

Arugal is pretty easy as a shaman tank though, this is your boon. Comparing it to the times I did it with a warrior or paladin I can vouch for this. Earth Shock's cooldown is short enough to be synchronised with his own spellcasting. Time it correctly and he'll rarely be able to get any spell out, by the time we killed him, he only managed to get one single teleport out.

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Spell use and stats:

What I've come to find is that maximum uptime of Lightning Shield, is very useful. Case in point: 3 mob pack, rogue in team will unleash every single thing he's got on the main target, giving little space for you to slack. You still have to account for the other 2 targets in order to stay above heal threat, so hitting them/shocking them at least once is necessary. Having dmg being done whenever you're being hit, builds some threat on targets you're not currently hitting. If a secondary target gets the lighting proc, you can afford to not him for a few more seconds. If the primary gets a proc, you can afford to hit another guy. In all regards, the absence of cleave-like moves (swipe, or the easy mode consecration) is one of the main concerns you need to be aware of and counter, and thorn dmg is a good workaround I've come to find.

In order for you to be able to keep lightning shield up for a majority of the time, you need to downrank midfight, and use max rank only when doing the first pull. On top of this, adding some Intellect to my stat set-up seems to yield positive results, not only for this purpose but to squeeze in an extra Earth Shock (I use 2 ranks of this as well depending on how dire I feel threat generation needs to be). Always pull yourself, if a regular trash mob, save mana and use lightning bolt rank 1. If a mob that stuns/incapacitates and can screw your threat generation, max rank lightning bolt + max rank Earth Shock, on top of the first lightning shield proc as well as 1 hit on rockbiter will surely be enough for you to recover.

My stat priority as it stands then is stamina (obvious tank choice, maxxing it compensates for lower comparative armor from leather), followed by strength and agility in similar doses, and intellect complement. This is for lowbie gear. I will re-assess this when nature/spell dmg, is an option, along with more specialized stats.

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A look at weapon speed:


Regarding weapon speed: I currently have both Meteor Shard from Arugal, 1.80, and I procured Vendetta (1.30 + 6 agi) from the AH. Tested both with KTM + using each of them in a different dungeon run.

I had done the previous math work on top of Aethelwulf's insight, and decided to theorize on it: A faster speed does represent a higher likelihood of Flurry uptime/minute. On top of this, speed reduces the punishment you get from a dodge/parry/miss, and more importantly: Target swapping requiring 110% threat on melee and 130% threat on ranged, means that you should always strive to keep a quicker, even if lower, threat generation, over a delayed, even if larger, threat generation, since mathematically speaking, it is always less costly to keep a target on you even if barely, than try to regain a lost target (lost targets also represent no thorn dmg being done, and in the case of dumb DPSers, threat dmg being done on their part if they didn't toggle off these options).

However, lower speeds do get one thing in their favour via Flurry. Since the attack speed boost is % based, a 0.3 reduction to swing time means that the absolute reduction will always be larger on higher values (slower weapons). Case in point, Meteor Shard having with the increased speed (I was 3/5 Flurry), puts it at 1.5 speed (0.36 reduction, always rounded downwards), while Vendetta's reduction will put it at 1.1 speed (0.26 reduction, rounded downwards to 0.2). This means that when Flurry does proc, slower weapons end up outclassing faster weapons in terms of threat generation. By trying this out in a dungeon, it worked precisely like this, every crit followed by Flurry on Meteor Shard was a really nice spike in threat, compared to Vendetta. After all, 1.8 threat was being applied on a 1.5 speed, resulting in better numbers than 1.3 threat, applied on 1.1 speed.


Regardless, my impression is that the advantage Flurry spikes give to slower weapons, aren't enough to match the advantages of faster weapons. To begin with, the spike in Flurry requires... well, a crit to begin with, slightly harder to get going with a slower weapon. A dodge/parry really hurts you much more, specially if you get a rough patch where Earth Shock was resisted as well. And finally, threat being the multiplicative thing it is, it will generally benefit you to put as much early threat as you can (by faster speed) even in lower absolute amounts, compared to higher amounts that require a longer swing time: If you put 216 threat in 2.5 seconds (2 swings,each for 108), your melee DPS will need to do 237 threat to pull away from you. If you put in 140 threat in 2.5 seconds (your second swing will come by 3.0 or later), your melee can pull away from you by just doing 154 threat, which isn't unfeasible for a bursty rogue that opens, auto attacks and follows with his first special in less than 2.5 seconds.

[Baby Seal]

Doc, I was wondering what your block levels were looking like, and your impressions of block in general for tanking. I'm wondering if 5/5 shield spec is really worth while since block rating will likely be rare on gear, it only gives 5% extra, and 5% more mana is very tempting, (especially since I'm now trying a resto / enh combo, testing out heals for aoe threat generation). Thoughts?

[Dr. Doom]

Doc, I was wondering what your block levels were looking like, and your impressions of block in general for tanking. I'm wondering if 5/5 shield spec is really worth while since block rating will likely be rare on gear, it only gives 5% extra, and 5% more mana is very tempting, (especially since I'm now trying a resto / enh combo, testing out heals for aoe threat generation). Thoughts?

I think that if it were only block chance, there'd be room for questioning, but what I find really important about shield spec, is the +25% increase to BV. This makes Shaman shield spec the best out of all the shield specs in the game:

Warrior 5/5: +5% block chance; 100% of 1 rage point when blocking.
Paladin 3/3: +30% BV
Shaman 5/5: +5 Block chance (Warrior like) ; + 25% BV (just slightly worse than paladin).

Although I can't confirm, I'm almost positive the 1.25 multiplied factor is done on BV after str and gear bonuses have been added, so it can amount to quite a bit of mitigation. The reason why I find it important is because in the absence of an armor equalizer to bring mail to the level of plate (like dire bear form does for druid tanks), it's necessary to rely on the second form of mitigation to decrease the incoming damage.

Regarding block chance, mine currenty stands at something like 10-11%, I haven't logged in to play for about a week, but it is already at the same level of my dodge chance, and since you can only get parry at level 30, I think it also helps a fair deal for the early dungeons I've done.

[AidanNaut]

This is a lot of great information. Thanks!

[Dr. Doom]

This is a lot of great information. Thanks!

Happy to.
I have tanked RFK (at level 31) twice in the last couple of days. Both times completing the whole instance in just under 40 minutes (Warlock soulstone buffs used to keep a timer on). I'm pleased to report that the earth elemental minions used by the quillboar casters aren't nature immune so controlling them is fairly easy.

I just got to 32 and thus have now chain lightning, will toy around with it and post what impressions I get from it (will probably tank Gnomeregan as a test). I suspect there'll be room for pretty good combinations once I also add in Stormstrike to the mix.

[Discarta]

This is a lot of great information. Thanks!

Happy to.
I have tanked RFK (at level 31) twice in the last couple of days. Both times completing the whole instance in just under 40 minutes (Warlock soulstone buffs used to keep a timer on). I'm pleased to report that the earth elemental minions used by the quillboar casters aren't nature immune so controlling them is fairly easy.

I just got to 32 and thus have now chain lightning, will toy around with it and post what impressions I get from it (will probably tank Gnomeregan as a test). I suspect there'll be room for pretty good combinations once I also add in Stormstrike to the mix.

Well, keep us updated man, innovating 12 years later! I hope to one day read about your tank raiding experience as a shaman

[Dr. Doom]

Well, keep us updated man, innovating 12 years later! I hope to one day read about your tank raiding experience as a shaman

Not sure if innovating. There's a vid of a shaman tanking Kazzak in full 10 storms. Using a caster rotation though, guessing since the set lacks physical stats.

Seems the highest mark achieved during retail vanilla, was a Shaman tanking (or offtanking not sure) C'thun. Finding several references to that event but not pictures or videos of it.

My main is a protection warrior and it's gotten to be too predictable. Too many others with the same spec, and it's the standard tanking anyway, I only have fun with it by trying something a bit different, say, challenging myself to stance dance enough to keep thunder clap up 100% of the time, or rolling with a prot pvp spec without Defiance.
Also did paladin tanking but just not too interesting, I essentially use 4 buttons there: Seal of the Crusader, Judgement, Seal of Righteousness and Consecration. After 4-5 seconds I essentially stay autoattacking while rambling in /g or /p. I do stun whenever I can wit HoJ just to do something. Guessing there's more stuff you can do in undead instances though.

Shaman tanking has been quite a blast to do. Not only has it been a whole exercise made from scratch just using this thread's feedback and my own first hand experience, but I genuinely feel like I have to keep warrior levels of speed/key pressing, as well as dealing with the disbelief and skepticism from my teams. It's the hard mode I like to play in.

Not sure if I'll really raid with it. 5 mans have always been what I prefer. Who knows.

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Did Gnomeregan. Quite the problematic pug. A hunter didn't have the goblin transponder and we cleared 80% of the dungeon before he sorted it all out and joined us. A warrior dps afked for half the dungeon at the entrance, so all in all, 40% of the dungeon was 3 manned, 40% was 4 manned, and the last bit did get a 5 man. 1 death in the team only. Even with all of this, it was cleared with all bosses (except the tunnel event) in less than 1 hour.

Since I had little to no CC I did get to test chain lightning for tanking. It is a great pulling method for packs, as I've said before here, one of the main issues you face as shaman tanking is the absence of multitarget moves, even 2-target, 3-target are great for warriors or druids. Prior to this whenever a multipack was pulled, I was always facing the risk of losing a secondary mob if heal threat was made before I got to swing at it, or if the primary was bursted too fast while I was securing the other mobs. The burst from this keeps them on you more safely.

However, the thing is extremely mana expensive. An equivalent of 2 max rank Earth Shocks. Although I do have some +intellect on gear, I obviously favour stamina and physical stats, so Chain Lightning can take around a sixth or seventh of my mana bar. My advice is that the pack is only 2 or 3 mobs, you probaby should try to not use it and just do basic control as I did prior to it. Otherwise you end up having to drink a bit too much. I spent 19 drinks for this run by relying a lot on chain lightning. Nothing too insightful, just be economical with a limited resource (mana) as opposed to an infinite resource (rage).

In terms of distribution, my assessment is that you should select a target different than the primary (skull marked) as your first chain lightning target. This means that you can more easily focus earth shocking and rockbiter attacks on the primary without having to pay that much attention to the secondaries, since they were hit for quite a bit of dmg pulling, while just having the primary be the 3rd target or not hit at all can easily be compensated by using the main threat moves on it on a consistent basis.

Combining this idea, with lightning shield, my druid friend thorns, and a shield spike I just added, I am capable of keeping about 5 targets on me with relative ease. My warrior target management is at around 7-8 mobs, so this one feels good enough for now considering the increased difficulty of shaman tanking.

[Mizu]

It's been awhile since I tested it, but around the time of the server's release, Rockbiter wasn't adding any additional threat, nor was Earth Shock. When it's working properly, there's zero reason to use Windfury when tanking as the overall DPS from Rockbiter (when using blue weapons that is, WF surpasses it beyond that) is comparable without even factoring in the bonus 72 * weapon speed threat. Weapon speed has zero bearing on flurry uptime, also, so you should choose a weapon based on its dps and stats (though slower weapons are technically preferable to make the most of stormstrke when you have that).

The -2 second cooldown on grounding totem is actually pretty handy for tanking casters, particularly in DM North and UBRS, but it's a matter of preference. Likewise, the reduced cooldown on shock spells seems like it'd be mandatory, but it's pretty unnecessary outside of an outright spamfest like Vael. Elemental devastation sounds amazing on paper, and maybe it could be good if you're using r1 shocks every cooldown and stacked some int/spellcrit, but it's a really underwhelming talent when you consider the uptime. Eye of the Storm might be more of a thing for self heals than for AoE tanking, as you shouldn't have trouble holding multiple targets anyway with just autoattack and ES, but the other thing is you don't wanna be doing long casts after eating a crit because you forfeit all of your avoidance and wind up taking even more damage.

You also don't wanna spam Earth Shock unless you absolutely have to in order to conserve your mana, and this typically works out because Rockbiter threat is fucking awesome. Minimizing downtime is arguably the biggest obstacle a Shaman tank has to overcome in 5-mans. Again, though, the threat on these tools is broken on most servers (I'll test it again here later today) so I did most of my Shammytanking on Stillbirth, and they only fixed it after I bitched for a year straight lol. These things have been nonfunctional literally everywhere else for such a long time that people forgot what it was like when they worked.

I can go on forever on the subject if there's interest in it, I've been at it for years and managed to tank in raids up to BWL.

[Mizu]

Still broken, both of them. Your spec of choice is completely nonfunctional.



Edit: forum cut off the KTM window http://puu.sh/o0rIa/fa9d511dda.PNG

[Dr. Doom]

Isn't KTM a pre-programmed thing though? like KLH, the author went over the threat value of every skill in the game and tried to build a full database for it, and the add-on goes over combat log and adds in those values. But I've seen it fail at basic stuff. An example is with battle shout and demo shout on a warrior, I can keep hitting and hitting the key and not register one bit of extra threat on my bar, yet the mob is still glued on to me due to the shout threat.

Worthy question though, I'll try to use damage meters and see if there's a threat addition being done.