Shaman DPS ideas and attitudes

Re: Shaman DPS ideas and attitudes

by Mizu » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:01 am

Flametongue and Frostbrand do not proc any effects like Clearcasting or Elemental Devastation.
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Re: Shaman DPS ideas and attitudes

by Egl » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:46 am

Thatoneguy wrote:Doesn't everybody already know that Elemental Shamans are viable in full AQ gear?

I don't want to hate on this thread or anything but you're trying to make a point everybody already knows and agrees with. It's just that people see Elemental Shamans as a liability until that point, rightfully so.


Unfortunately I cannot say I did as I've never seen or heard of a shaman playing elemental regularly in AQ+ content, but then again the server I mostly play on is quite small.

Actually to me the true point I've been trying to make is that enhancement could be played in another manner, the elemental part of the thread is a rather simple idea I just wanted to share along the way.

This is the second time the subject of lower tier viability comes up however so I might direct my focus on that. It shouldn't be too hard to find average encounter times in MC and BWL to see which rank you'd be using with pre-raid BiS before throwing up a simple formula to calculate your DPS.

Mizu wrote:Flametongue and Frostbrand do not proc any effects like Clearcasting or Elemental Devastation.


Excellent. Thank you for that input. It is much appreciated.
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Re: Shaman DPS ideas and attitudes

by Killstick » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:09 pm

Just dumping some things stuff that came across my mind:

1) If spellpen is such a big deal i think it will be rather easy to pick up. You should atleast be able to get like 60 without TF debuff. Imagine you get this 60 spellpen what are your major secondary stats to go for (hit, crit, spelldmg)?

2) Mana problems; can't a large portion of our mana problems be solved by going heavy on the consumes? If you whole guild does this to max DPS it will also play into the advantage of an ele shaman.

3) In light of the mana problems and the good coefficients its important to be casting 24/7 rather than going max rank, going oom and waiting for regen. So you would indeed need to do some math on how long the encounters last and what rank can be spammed. I'd always build a margin into this as you will be droppig supporting totems and might want to have enough mana for a max rank NS at all times.

4) It would be unlikely but a big luxery if you were grouped with another resto shaman who can provide improved spring and mana tide. Also you wouldn't be spending mana to drop these.

5) Does Chain Lightning serve any purpose in the rotation (even downranked) in a longer fight vs single target? I see it working in short DPS races where mana isn't an issue and fights where there are multiple target but no idea about single bosses.

6) Are shocks used at all? Be it max rank for DPS (long or short encounters) or lowest rank for CC proc? Or is the GCD just a dps loss?

7) Flametongue/melee: Do any encounters come to mind where the use of melee seems likely because you cannot cast (Silences, hugging boss, reflective shields)? If you are going to melee (not all the time but some) would you concider a weapon, gloves, enchant that proc with spelldmg?

9) Gearwise i think 1 ele shaman could soak up alot of loot that is less desirable for clothies or just some good leather/mail loot they cannot use.
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Re: Shaman DPS ideas and attitudes

by Egl » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:10 pm

Killstick wrote:1) If spellpen is such a big deal i think it will be rather easy to pick up. You should atleast be able to get like 60 without TF debuff. Imagine you get this 60 spellpen what are your major secondary stats to go for (hit, crit, spelldmg)?


I would imagine that with the extra reduced casting time of shaman spells the stat of choice would be spell power. Ayz posted a google docs spreadsheet that you can see here that might answer the question better.

Killstick wrote:2) Mana problems; can't a large portion of our mana problems be solved by going heavy on the consumes? If you whole guild does this to max DPS it will also play into the advantage of an ele shaman.


You can calculate your average mp5 from consumables, I believe it's 162 with the following:
Mageblood Potion
Mana Spring Totem (untalented)
Demonic Rune
Major Mana Potion
Nightfin Soup

Your average -mp5 from casting Lightning Bolt is quite easy to calculate also:
Base_Mana_Cost*0,8*2,5

So for rank 10 it's:
265*0,8*2,5=530

Killstick wrote:3) In light of the mana problems and the good coefficients its important to be casting 24/7 rather than going max rank, going oom and waiting for regen. So you would indeed need to do some math on how long the encounters last and what rank can be spammed. I'd always build a margin into this as you will be droppig supporting totems and might want to have enough mana for a max rank NS at all times.


That's true. It would be best to know the average kill time of each boss for your guild and prop a chart detailing your average time before going OOM for each rank, with a little extra as you say.

Killstick wrote:4) It would be unlikely but a big luxery if you were grouped with another resto shaman who can provide improved spring and mana tide. Also you wouldn't be spending mana to drop these.


That's indeed quite luxurious. I'm not sure many raid leaders would be willing to do that but if they are they could see whether different ranks of totems stack while they're at it, might make it more worthwhile if they do.

Killstick wrote:5) Does Chain Lightning serve any purpose in the rotation (even downranked) in a longer fight vs single target? I see it working in short DPS races where mana isn't an issue and fights where there are multiple target but no idea about single bosses.


The base damage of Chain Lightning is higher than Lightning Bolt, resulting in higher DPS. It should be worth it to cast a maximum rank Chain Lightning on Clearcasting procs even against single targets.

Killstick wrote:6) Are shocks used at all? Be it max rank for DPS (long or short encounters) or lowest rank for CC proc? Or is the GCD just a dps loss?


Shocks have a coefficient of 1,5/3,5=~43%. Lightning Bolt has a 3,0/3,5=~86% coefficient. Taking 0.5 seconds longer to double the amount of spell damage your spell receives seems like a good tradeoff. A rank 5 Lightning Bolt only costs 105 mana untalented and would be a better choice for Clearcast proccing.

Killstick wrote:7) Flametongue/melee: Do any encounters come to mind where the use of melee seems likely because you cannot cast (Silences, hugging boss, reflective shields)? If you are going to melee (not all the time but some) would you concider a weapon, gloves, enchant that proc with spelldmg?


There's nothing particular that comes to mind. It was mostly an idea on how to combat the lack of spell pen before AQ40 as well as make a melee shaman playstyle more viable. The fire resistance in MC and BWL would make this spec difficult to use there as I doubt Frostbrand is any good. The best venue I find for this is AQ40 while you're collecting spell pen gear.

Of course if someone has information on the workings of Frostbrand (chance to proc and spell power scaling) it'd be nice to take a look at.

Killstick wrote:9) Gearwise i think 1 ele shaman could soak up alot of loot that is less desirable for clothies or just some good leather/mail loot they cannot use.


There are indeed a few items here and there that would be easy for shamans to grab. If it's true that spell power benefits them more then there might be some items out there that are generally discarded due to lack of other stats that they could grab for example.
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Re: Shaman DPS ideas and attitudes

by Killstick » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:53 am

1) I also expected Spelldamage to be the best stat. Especially with world buffs you can up crit by alot. We also have alot of crit built into our talent. Which leaves hit. I think its realistic that you could get atleast 4% hit out of ZG gear (Consumption, Bloodtinged gloves, Zanzil's (can be replace by ring from Ebonroc), and Jin'do's Bag). Or bloodvine goggles if you are engi and really low on hit
Ideally you would pick up Neltharion's Tear but thats daydreaming I believe unless you get your hands on it in a PUG.
AQ20 and AQ40 staff could also be used for hit.

4) Being in group with another shaman would indeed increase own DPS. But our utility would go down alot.

So for the rotation:

LB) Check duration of the boss fight. Calculate your regen during this fight from MP5, spring, pots, runes and you have a max mana to spend. From this we need to substract all totems cast for a 100% uptime. Also keep a small margin of error in mind (i would say like 10%) for emergency healing. In case the boss does go down and you will have mana to spare you can still up your LB rank or cast max rank CL to go oom when the boss dies. In some fights you also need to take into account that you will not be casting all the time due to repositioning/relfect shield/silencing. time vs max mana to spend should give us a rough idea on what rank LB we should spam (always take a rank lower than your estimate).

Searing) Aim for 100% uptime and make sure you are in range of a target. Do keep in mind that it will assist your target. It might attack a sheeped or so target.

Chain Lightning (max rank)) Used on AoE encounters + clearcasting proc on single target encounters

Shocks) Not part of normal rotation. ES can be used to interupt certain mobs bosses. Frost shock (no additional agro and benefits from curse of elements) can be used as DPS when you are repositioning.

Fire Nova/Magma) For Aoe. Weakness of these is that you cannot move them. Magma will do more damage if it can stay up for a long time. Do remember that it has a very small range and that you can cast (i believe 2) multiple fire nova totems over the 20 second duration a magma would last.

NS is best saved for emergency tank healing.

Melee is a non atm untill proven otherwise

Talents: I'm leaning towards http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#hEcuVb0qZZVoez0xo

Mandatory in resto:

- reduced totem mana cost
- improved totem range
- crit and hit chance
- NS

This leaves you the choice to either reduce mana cost on heals or go for fast HW casttime. And 1 leftover point.

Elemental:

- No shock CD reduction as they are not part of the standard rotation
- No increased range on LB/CL because we want to be in range for searing totem to hit the boss.
- Reduced det on fire nova is good on AoE because you have a higher chance of actually hitting the mobs before they die or move away.
- I put the 3 remaining points in warding because the talent does adres the 3 biggest sources of damage you will recieve througout the vanilla content. If you wish to PvP with the same build you PvE I would suggest moving these points to Eye of the Storm.
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Re: Shaman DPS ideas and attitudes

by Thatoneguy » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:20 pm

I think that as long as you go oom Nature Swiftness is useless. Elemental Mastery allows you to get another free cast that will not only hit 100% but also crit 100%.

With NS you will still be stuck with the GCD from your cast. If at some point you run out of mana there's no point to NS. I suspect that untill you can blast max rank LB&CL for the entire fight Elemental Mastery will be the superior talent. Once you reach that point where you can constantly cast max rank, NS becomes attractive because it allows you to do so but faster... but even then NS can be resisted while EM will not, so there's that as well.
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Re: Shaman DPS ideas and attitudes

by Killstick » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:47 pm

I would save NS for a clutch heal to keep a tank or another DPS up. In my opinion that is by far superior to anything EM can offer.

The difference EM might make on your personal meter will be marginal. Saving a tank or another DPS (or even yourself) will make a much bigger impact.
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Re: Shaman DPS ideas and attitudes

by Thatoneguy » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:58 pm

That's true, if clutch healing is needed NS will be superior.
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