Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by justclassic » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:11 pm

Memegank wrote:Yes, but that 15% chance can be reduced by avoidance. Parry / dodge / block take a higher precedence than crushing blows on the attack table.

102.4% is the avoidance cap. When your cumulative Dodge, Parry and Block (+ 5% Boss miss) equal or exceed 102.4%, You are now un-hittable by normal attacks (either crushing or normal hits). In this case, the boss will either miss or you will dodge, parry, or block the attack. Blocked attacks cannot be crushing blows and therefore you cannot be crushed in this case.

For example: someone who is at 440 defence with 18% dodge, 17% parry, 22% block as their base avoidance gets the following attack table from a boss.
Miss: 5.00%
Dodge: 18.00%
Parry: 17.00%
Glancing Blow: 0.00%
Block: 22.00%
Critical hit: 0.00%
Crushing Blow: 15.00%
Ordinary hit: 25.40%


Now lets say it's a warrior who uses shield block (+75% chance to dodge for 5 seconds or 2 attacks):
Miss: 5.00%
Dodge: 18.00%
Parry: 17.00%
Glancing Blow: 0.00%
Block: 97.00% (22 + 75)
Critical hit: 0.00%
Crushing Blow: 0.00%
Ordinary hit: 0.00%

Block chance takes precedence over crushing blows and ordinary hits and is now so large that it has pushed them both off the attack table and therefore CANNOT happen.

Same situation for a defence capped paladin with the same avoidance stats using holy shield (+30% chance to block):
Miss: 5.00%
Dodge: 18.00%
Parry: 17.00%
Glancing Blow: 0.00%
Block: 52.00% (22 + 30)
Critical hit: 0.00%
Crushing Blow: 10.40%
Ordinary hit: 0.00%

Here, the extra block chance has pushed ordinary hits off the attack table but the paladin's total avoidance has only reached 92% and therefore this leaves 10.4% to be accounted for, which will always end up being crushing blows if the boss does not miss or the paladin does not dodge / parry / block.


This sums it up perfectly.
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Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by justclassic » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:18 pm

smilkovpetko wrote:http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Crushing_blow?oldid=314477

When the attacker is 3 or more levels above its target, there is a 15% minimum chance of being struck by a crushing blow.

If a player's defense is lower than the maximum for that level, the crushing blow chance is increased. However, having extra defense past the cap for that level does not lower the crushing blow chance any further.


http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Defense?oldid=238467

Revision as of 18:14, September 8, 2006



I love the crushing blow link you gave us. Because it shows that you didn't even read past the first 5 lines.

Their is some vandal muslim in the bottom part cause someone made a bad joke in Novmeber 2006.

This is the real link to the entry from November 2006 which even states that you are wrong.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Crushing_ ... did=314478
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Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by Dr. Doom » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:28 pm

justclassic wrote:In terms of maintanking a raidboss paladins only have 2 real disadvantages over warriors.

1. Warriors get a -10% dmg buff (including magic dmg) from def stance. Paladins dont have a compareable buff that is exclusive for them.

2. Warriors can become crush immune for at least 2 blows every 5 seconds. Paladins can't.

A possible third could be taunt, but it isnt needed everywhere and also taunt got some weaknesses (resist f.e.).


+ Def capping renders Redoubt useless, meaning prot paladins are actually playing with 46 talents not 51, in practical terms their block chance will always be lower since there is no equivalent to warrior (or shaman) shield specialization. Paladin shield specialization only affects block value.

+ Any silencing move renders a protection paladin useless.
I remember tanking Kurinaxx years ago with my warrior, and the sand bombs that he can occasionally spawn right under your very feet (easy to see as ranged, harder to spot as melee while staying on top of the threat table) will silence, making you unable to even taunt. You have to get around the tank swaps by using mocking blow when that happens.

+ Any magic immune/high resist mob means a paladin can't tank it.

+ Tank swapping is much harder to accomplish due to no taunt (Kurinaxx is a good example again).

+ Paladins don't have any emergency buttons on them, akin to Last Stand or Shield Wall, or even the Druid's move that consumes rage and turns it to health. Only LoH would count here, on a cooldown that is 6x longer than last stand and 2x longer than shield wall, and that will not grant the armor buff since well... prot paladins never spec it. On top of leaving the main tank manaless (good luck with TPS at that point)

Secondary:

+ Paladins can't interrupt spells on non-stunnable mobs, like a warrior can with shield bash. They need their team to do it for them.


--------------------------------------

I've played tank characters in plenty of MMOs, and I've actually conducted polls with people in this server for a good while. The consensus is not only that protection warrior is without a shred of a doubt the best tank, except for the niche AoE trash tanking where consecration reigns supreme, but that even a druid bear tank who plays with optimal skill is preferable to a protection paladin if we're talking about main tanking, as a bear has enough HP/armor to survive crushing blows much better than a paladin can, + having a taunt + having a rage mechanic that renders mana issues as well as silencing a nonfactor for him.

Does this mean paladins can't tank? Of course not, I have a paladin character, I've tanked with him, it has worked fairly well. I actually try to do the better thing and spec him differently, and specialize in offtanking and offhealing. You know, what a paladin was conceived to do? Be a tanky support class.
If there's no warrior, I tank. It works. DIfference is, I always take more dmg than a protection warrior would due to no defensive stance + lower block chance, so I always do the efficient thing for the team and if there's a prot warrior, I switch to healing, for which I have gear as well.


If duki feels so personally vested in playing a protection warrior in spite of all the above, and seeking to main tank raids, regardless of the bigger strain you put on all of your raid due to your spec, that's fine, do what you will. But if I mention that I will roll shaman tank, then don't act outraged "comparing frogs and rabbits" simply because my idea might be even more difficult and inefficient to play. As said previously: If you care about efficiency, then roll a protection warrior, if not, and you're playing suboptimal specs for fun, you don't get to judge other people for it. Period.
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Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by smilkovpetko » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:05 pm

+ Def capping renders Redoubt useless, meaning prot paladins are actually playing with 46 talents not 51, in practical terms their block chance will always be lower since there is no equivalent to warrior (or shaman) shield specialization. Paladin shield specialization only affects block value.


We have Holy Shield for more Block , Def cap automatically make Paladin mitigate far more damage from Shaman and we have too high Block Value not only from Shield Spec but also from extra Strength from Divine Strength.

+ Any silencing move renders a protection paladin useless.
I remember tanking Kurinaxx years ago with my warrior, and the sand bombs that he can occasionally spawn right under your very feet (easy to see as ranged, harder to spot as melee while staying on top of the threat table) will silence, making you unable to even taunt. You have to get around the tank swaps by using mocking blow when that happens.


We have bubble (clicking to instant remove) to remove this silence and re use our abilities , Seal of Righteousness last 30 Seconds and no silence can interrupt it , our aggro is based on jotc/sor and return damage so Silence is nothing that will affect us on anything .

+ Any magic immune/high resist mob means a paladin can't tank it.


There is no resistance to Holy and the only mob immune to holy is from BWL which usual is kited/tanked by Hunters (only mob) .

+ Tank swapping is much harder to accomplish due to no taunt (Kurinaxx is a good example again).


not a big deal at all , Bubble will remove your debuffs and automatically you tank twice in row , Warrior later will taunt but will not do much aggro , your auto swings with SoR will automatically get back aggro once debuff is gone (if you have control over your KTM) .

+ Paladins don't have any emergency buttons on them, akin to Last Stand or Shield Wall, or even the Druid's move that consumes rage and turns it to health. Only LoH would count here, on a cooldown that is 6x longer than last stand and 2x longer than shield wall, and that will not grant the armor buff since well... prot paladins never spec it. On top of leaving the main tank manaless (good luck with TPS at that point)


We got Bubble to remove our deadly debuffs , we got LoH , we can get def cap , we have tons of extra block value that automatic make our Block mitigate huge amount of damage , we have tons of armor to reduce all that damage income , this is what shamman don't have and will never have , (including druid that never have def cap).

With good gear there is no need for Special emergency buttons since adds/Bosses will never hit you deadly and with simple Greater Stonehield Potion we fit out Armor Cap.

Secondary:

+ Paladins can't interrupt spells on non-stunnable mobs, like a warrior can with shield bash. They need their team to do it for them.


That's why Rogues , Fury warriors exist ... GG

DIfference is, I always take more dmg than a protection warrior would due to no defensive stance + lower block chance, so I always do the efficient thing for the team and if there's a prot warrior, I switch to healing, for which I have gear as well.


When you are armor cap , you take far lower damage than Warrior due to Block Value on Shield and your Shield will block tons amount of damage.

Def Stance = damage reduction before armor which leaves warrior def stance 75% worthless and 25% only useful , which mean if Target hit for 1k , def stance will reduce only 25 damage, while Block Value from Paladin is linear and after damage reduction , which mean the block with full amount damage will occur.

If duki feels so personally vested in playing a protection warrior in spite of all the above, and seeking to main tank raids, regardless of the bigger strain you put on all of your raid due to your spec,


It's not what i feel , the game officially 3 tanks are and always been Druid,Warrior,Paladin . This is official on every single Expansion that exist , they all have all the tools required for Tanking .

Also it's not what i feel but what i have already Done where no Shamans or anyone have or can Tank any Raid Boss in Naxx or Trash when your Raid is top knotch to "Full DPS" on pull.

But if I mention that I will roll shaman tank, then don't act outraged "comparing frogs and rabbits" simply because my idea might be even more difficult and inefficient to play.


Nobody got outraged on anything, it is only you who is messing with my tanking comparing frogs and apples "if paladins can do then shamans or priests can do" which makes absolutely no sense at all.

As said previously: If you care about efficiency, then roll a protection warrior, if not, and you're playing suboptimal specs for fun, you don't get to judge other people for it. Period.


You know nothing about efficiency , if you want efficiency you should have from every single spec in your raid in order to have best tools for every single Boss in Game that exist, which make Paladin and Druid also efficient due to their far greater benefits toward "specific" fights which are much better on those fights than Warriors.

And at the end of the day i am not here to say "if dr.doom" can do it then i can do it because this is edge of madness .

I have already done all this stuffs before i engage toward any conversation regarding Paladin Tank and i have already experienced them before i talk about them.

Where you can only assume regarding your facts.
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Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by justclassic » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:20 pm

smilkovpetko wrote:We have Holy Shield for more Block , Def cap automatically make Paladin mitigate far more damage from Shaman and we have too high Block Value not only from Shield Spec but also from extra Strength from Divine Strength.


To get 1 block value from the strength bonus divine strength provides it would take 200 strength. So even with bis and full buffed the difference would be like 3 block value difference from divine strength.

Shield spec helps a little, but since we talked about maintanking bosses it's also neglectable.

Yet shamans are definitely worse tanks than paladins due to gear issues (plate + def gear).

smilkovpetko wrote:When you are armor cap , you take far lower damage than Warrior due to Block Value on Shield and your Shield will block tons amount of damage.


I think it very unlikely that warriors or paladins have armor cap in a situation where they don't have Stoneshield potion plus a priest or loh armor buff.

Even though you block "tons" of dmg it is still only a small fraction of a boss swing. Like 10-15% which will still result in the healer being in the need to heal you.

smilkovpetko wrote:Def Stance = damage reduction before armor which leaves warrior def stance 75% worthless and 25% only useful , which mean if Target hit for 1k , def stance will reduce only 25 damage, while Block Value from Paladin is linear and after damage reduction , which mean the block with full amount damage will occur.


Bosses usually hit for enough dmg that Def stance outweighs the shield spec advantages of a paladin.

Also you can't block magic .
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Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by smilkovpetko » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:54 pm

by justclassic » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:20 pm


To get 1 block value from the strength bonus divine strength provides it would take 200 strength. So even with bis and full buffed the difference would be like 3 block value difference from divine strength.


3 block value + shield spec = 4

Even though you block "tons" of dmg it is still only a small fraction of a boss swing


260 damage block is not a small fraction.

Bosses usually hit for enough dmg that Def stance outweighs the shield spec advantages of a paladin.

Also you can't block magic .


only at enrage bosses , but on good gear enrage is no problem at all to survive .

regarding magic our resistance aura says hello to you , where many bosses that does "breath:" will wipe out the shit out of healers if they stay close . (example nefarian) only stupid healers will stay close to tank and eat fears .

Yet shamans are definitely worse tanks than paladins due to gear issues (plate + def gear).


That's what i am trying to tell dr.doom , including aggro where our aggro is based to "spell damage" and scale with our spell damage weapon and spell damage consumes. (while shamans aggro is static) invisible and lower than requirement.
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Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by Imbaslap » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:19 am

pally's can tank pretty dam well in certain scenarios.
the only shit part is this.
no class has flat % reduction of all incoming damage except warrior.

warrior defence stance is flat 10% regardless. (this is huge in terms of scaling damage)

shadowpriests get -15% physical reduction flat (prob why they can tank ony with enough gear)

here is the stickler..
you cannot block/parry/dodge anything while stunned. (maexxna for example)
the only thing to counter this boss as a tank is High Armor + good defense value during the 10s web spray.

I dunno what shit scripts were on feenix, but on retail vanilla it was like that.

the benefit for pally tanks for Naxx trash is undead. problem is, I cannot see what will happen against any boss that negates their blocking ability (stuns/silences/defense reduction)

either way, pally tanks are at the mercy of being mana users without a taunt and no benefits to counter CC effects during certain encounters. now in TBC, you get huge tanking buffs. this is where it was amazing to tank on. problem still was the amount of damage scaling from the level 70 mobs that would almost 2-3 shot a prot warrior.

trying to force a spot as a tank as a prot pally in a very intense raid is not only childish, but selfish thinking if you think you can tank maexxna efficiently.
maybe on some other poorly scripted emulator. but not on retail wow vanilla.

+1 for keeping the dream alive though.
I enjoy pally tanks in UD strat for speed clearing. just wish you had unlimited mana for less downtime.

bear's work well on maexxna as backup to prot warrior.
Last edited by Imbaslap on Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by smilkovpetko » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:26 am

Imbaslap wrote:pally's can tank pretty dam well in certain scenarios.
the only shit part is this.
no class has flat % reduction of all incoming damage except warrior.

warrior defence stance is flat 10% regardless. (this is huge in terms of scaling damage)

shadowpriests get -15% physical reduction flat (prob why they can tank ony with enough gear)

here is the stickler..
you cannot block/parry/dodge anything while stunned. (maexxna for example)
the only thing to counter this boss as a tank is High Armor + good defense value during the 10s web wrap.

I dunno what shit scripts were on feenix, but on retail vanilla it was like that.

the benefit for pally tanks for Naxx trash is undead. problem is, I cannot see what will happen against any boss that negates their blocking ability (stuns/silences/defense reduction)

either way, pally tanks are at the mercy of being mana users without a taunt and no benefits to counter CC effects during certain encounters. now in TBC, you get huge tanking buffs. this is where it was amazing to tank on. problem still was the amount of damage scaling from the level 70 mobs that would almost 2-3 shot a prot warrior.

trying to force a spot as a tank as a prot pally in a very intense raid is not only childish, but selfish thinking if you think you can tank maexxna efficiently.
maybe on some other poorly scripted emulator. but not on retail wow vanilla.

+1 for keeping the dream alive though.
I enjoy pally tanks in UD strat for speed clearing. just wish you had unlimited mana for less downtime.

bear's work well on maexxna as backup to prot warrior.


I think someone living bigger dream than i do....

here is the stickler..
you cannot block/parry/dodge anything while stunned. (maexxna for example)
the only thing to counter this boss as a tank is High Armor + good defense value during the 10s web wrap.


https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 8017_o.jpg

Was this Boss that you pointed out ? ...
And yes even in peenix couldn't dodge/parry/block .
But you know what happen when boss Enrage?! .

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Maexxna_%28original%29

For the second Web Spray have a healer with SS or Divine Shield ready. Shamans with Reincarnation also do.

Bubble and instant remove it so you don't get wrapped and you can continue normal tanking with Block/Dodge/Parry.

trying to force a spot as a tank as a prot pally in a very intense raid is not only childish, but selfish thinking if you think you can tank maexxna efficiently.
maybe on some other poorly scripted emulator. but not on retail wow vanilla.


Trying to force someone to play something else that he will never play and not allowing him to Tank because you think the opposite is the selfish and childlish . not the one that is trying and doing his job.
Last edited by smilkovpetko on Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by smilkovpetko » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:30 am

justclassic wrote:
smilkovpetko wrote:http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Crushing_blow?oldid=314477

When the attacker is 3 or more levels above its target, there is a 15% minimum chance of being struck by a crushing blow.

If a player's defense is lower than the maximum for that level, the crushing blow chance is increased. However, having extra defense past the cap for that level does not lower the crushing blow chance any further.


http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Defense?oldid=238467

Revision as of 18:14, September 8, 2006



I love the crushing blow link you gave us. Because it shows that you didn't even read past the first 5 lines.

Their is some vandal muslim in the bottom part cause someone made a bad joke in Novmeber 2006.

This is the real link to the entry from November 2006 which even states that you are wrong.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Crushing_ ... did=314478



This has never been officially confirmed by Blizzard

Good Luck.
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Re: Paladin Tank Retail pre 1.9 patch

by Killstick » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:02 am

smilkovpetko wrote:You know nothing about efficiency , if you want efficiency you should have from every single spec in your raid in order to have best tools for every single Boss in Game that exist, which make Paladin and Druid also efficient due to their far greater benefits toward "specific" fights which are much better on those fights than Warriors.


If you take a prot paladin along its mostly to clear some niche stuff. Or to speed up the raid a bit. The paladin, while they may be able to MT, will never be MT because it will slow down the clear.

Go healer, pick up those offset pieces for prot, save the money to respec frequently if you are ever needed to tank.
Even then i think you will only be allowed to go prot for trash clear or farm content. I don't think thats anything a hardcore raider is looking for. It can be fun a few times but you want to do either progression raiding or PvP. noone gives an ass about farmed content.

In the end you gotta deal with the fact that you are up against a huge bias. I think you approach it smart by posting video's of clearing stuff. But tbh i was expecting atleast some MC/ZG stuff by now. I think joining a guild a going prot from the start is a bad move. Might be you will have to go holy first to prove you have knowledge of the game, encounters and want to put some time in towards a guild.
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