Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

by smilkovpetko » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:12 pm

poe wrote:Wall of text inc., sorry if the text sounds harsh sometimes, it's not my intention :D

So the stats get their value from 2 things at the same time:
1) how much more your heals hit for if you get the stat
2) how much longer can you heal for and thus do more overall healing


Your quote didn't really clarify everything:
1) why is 1int=1healing, when 1crit=20.34healing and with bok 24.38int=1crit?

using above weights, we get 1int=20.34*1/24.38=0.834healing
if we don't include the mana pool gained. Then again, there wasn't any calculations how much
the increased mana pool is worth in healing.

2) why is 1mp5=1.91healing, when based on the rank4 FoL calculations:

32mp5 = 286.92 more healing done in 5sec (3casts)
<=>1mp5 = 8.96625
now we want to know how much more we need +healing to heal that much more in 3 casts
(8.96625/3)/(15/35) (why was coefficient 48% when it should be 42.857%? nost thing?)
we get that 1mp5=6.97375healing for FoL R4 when you cast 90% of the time.

3) why is 1crit=20.34healing?

lets take the gear quoted, you will heal with r4 FoL on average
234.64+829*(15/35)*1.0868=620.7645

increasing your crit by 1% you will heal for 0.5% more which is
3.1038 more, which is 3.1038/(15/35)=7.242healing

and you save 0.01*90mana per cast. If we take previous example of 3 casts in 5sec,
you will save 2.7mana in 5seconds which is 2.7mp5.

so if we use your 1mp5=1.92healing,
1crit=7.242+2.7*1.91=12.399healing

based on previously calculated new 1mp5=8.697375healing we get
1crit=7.242+2.7*8.97375=31.47healing

**EDIT: And these values would again change how much 1int is worth, to either <0.6healing or >1.3healing

4) why was rank4 FoL used as the only example?


(I don't propose those new calculated weights as the real weights, I only calculated them
with the info given above to prove that something seems wrong with the stat weights.)



Shouldn't we calculate how long we can heal for with specific gear, buffs, consumables, spell and
cast% and
a)calculate how much more healing 1 cast gains from specific stats
b)calculate how much more total healing we can do before going oom with specific stats

Then use a) stat weights when you know you dont go oom, and use b) stat weights
when you know you need the extra mana.

In case a) mp5 is worthless, int only gains value because it gives crit, and crit
only gains value from the increased healing it does, not from illumination

In case b) mp5, int and crit will gain huge value because they give you mana so you can
do more overall healing during the encounter at the cost of HPS.



All in all this won't change the BIS gear lists much (or in some cases at all) for pure healing
and you will still clear all of vanilla with competent healing squad if you use old stat weights.
This new info will mostly be useful for ppl who want to save on consumables (eh), their raid team
isn't the best(dps low, other healers slack, bad tactics, overhealing, etc) and speedclears.

In speedclears you want to maximize your healing capability so you can drop healers for more dps
(especially in AQ40/naxx where you might have to start casting FoL 100% of the time with reduced
healing squad and the encounters will take longer than 5 minutes so you might have to stack some
mp5/crit/int). And of course we don't want to give people false information.

Ideally we would have 1 BIS list for pure healing and another list with nice replacements which give
you mp5/crit/int for reasons listed above.


^^^^ this guy gets it ^^^^

p.s don't forget Divine intellect increase the value of intellect from 1 into 1.1 (10% increased int) which also increase the values that you have explained above regarding buffs etc.
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Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

by DrearyYew » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:01 am

First, I do want to say that the average cast is just that; an average. It's also worth mentioning that a lot of these calculations are completely subjective, as a Paladin's healing role changes from fight to fight. Most of the time, it's FoL spamming on the raid, while other fights, it is important to maintain high Tank healing. Also, as content progresses, Holy Light will become much more prominent in our rotation, which is much more mana intensive and RNG prone. Any values that anyone will give you are subjective, and if they aren't, well, they are only calculating for one type of fight, which isn't good practice for healer stat weights for any class.

For 1 int = 1 healing, your calculation is correct for 0.834 when derived from crit. There is no way to numerically account for the mana pool gained, and is completely up to the discretion of the person formulating stat weights. In this case, I use 0.166, mainly because it puts us at a nice, even 1.00.

And yes Duki, please read the post, the formulas already account for the 10% Intellect bonus, as well as the 10% from Blessing of Kings, check the formula for Intellect to Spell Crit.

The reason MP5 is so much lower than realistically calculated is because if you have too much MP5 and Spell Crit, you run into the issue of never running out of mana, which is suboptimal. Completely optimal play and gearing would mean you are running out of mana as each encounter ends. So one or the other has to be traded out in favor of more raw healing power, or the other stat. MP5 is a significantly weaker stat, and is traded out, since Spell Crit is so much more easily available with our very favorable Intellect to Spell Crit ratio. That's where the 1.91 value comes from. This value is, once again, quite subjective, and will change depending on who is making the stat weights. They have a mathematical base, but reaching the end value is subjective.

Flash of Light coefficient is 48% after the 12% talent.

Spell Crit, however, is also forced into some sort of artificial reduction. This is because you don't ever want to give up too much Healing power to get Spell Crit, that is to say that there is a certain ratio that is ideal to maintain, or remain close to. My value was derived in a very similar way to yours, but I artificially slashed 1/3 of the value off to reach about 20.34.

R4 FoL was used as the only example because it was a good average at the time I calculated the weights. As long as you are casting FoL of any rank, the ratios are going to be maintained regardless, with maybe MP5 changing ever so slightly.

As for calculating for stat weights knowing how long it will take to go oom, Paladins are in a unique setting where it's only really possible to do that if you are only accounting for Flash of Light. The further progression goes, the more we are going to need Holy Light, which is a completely different dynamic than Flash of Light.

Two separate BiS lists is good when it comes to farm content, but who gives a flying fuck about optimizing for farm content on a healer? My weights are focused on gearing for progression, which has many twists and turns, and your role might change on a moment's notice depending on the encounter, or what happens in the encounter. Paladins are extremely versatile, and in my opinion, it is doing the class a disservice to not gear to be versatile. Again, there is no real way to mathematically account for this versatility, all values are completely subjective and up to whoever is making the weights.

Regardless, Stat weights are a means to an end, and the end in this case is a BiS list. Vanilla gear is horribly nonuniform, and starting in AQ, the BiS list won't change no matter what way you look at it.
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Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

by smilkovpetko » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:14 am

The reason MP5 is so much lower than realistically calculated is because if you have too much MP5 and Spell Crit, you run into the issue of never running out of mana, which is suboptimal.


If this is the case ^ , Ain't higher rank FoL and Holy Light become more value than "downranking" ? And the benefits from intellect due to it's "mana per heal+crit for mana regen".

Also each Ranks will change their Values differently +heal vs +int and +crit.

reread this https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 30#p280877

R4 FoL was used as the only example because it was a good average at the time I calculated the weights.


This is what we are trying to tell you , higher rank will benefit more by Intellect due to it's "more +heal" per mana used, more +heal per crit used and more mana regen per crit.

Paladins are in a unique setting where it's only really possible to do that if you are only accounting for Flash of Light. The further progression goes, the more we are going to need Holy Light, which is a completely different dynamic than Flash of Light.


So we agree that "bigger" mana pool benefit than "more +heal" ?

And yes Duki, please read the post, the formulas already account for the 10% Intellect bonus, as well as the 10% from Blessing of Kings, check the formula for Intellect to Spell Crit.


https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 30#p280802

First, we're going to convert Intellect into Spell Crit to calculate the total cost reduction on spells.

Spell Crit = 5 + 3 + ( 275.88 / 29.5 ) = 17.35% (note that this does not include Raid Buffs outside of Blessing of Kings)


I think you gotta re read , it does not mention Divine Intellect and it mention only Kings.
Second it is not counting Raid Buffs except Kings.
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Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

by poe » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:40 am

Yes, the BIS lists won't change much because there isn't that much of healer loot to choose from. But this is more towards minmaxers, as I tried to point out. You won't have trouble keeping ppl up in progression/farm raids if you have average gear from current/previous raid instance. But when aq40/naxx is released, the BIS list would change more depending which type of encounter you are gearing for.

Thanks to realmstats speedclears are becoming more competitive, and dropping healers for dps will improve the times, and new stat weights would benefit those healers to improve their healing.

In the end, your BIS list is just fine for any player who doesn't care about minmaxing. Sure they won't perform on an encounter as well as a minmaxer, but as I said earlier it shouldn't matter in your typical progression/farm raid.
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Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

by DrearyYew » Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:08 pm

No matter how you gear yourself as a Paladin (or a Druid, for that matter) you're going to be one of the first healers sat if you're going for speed clears, with the exception of the few Paladins that are needed for the major DPS buffs. Kinda hard to minmax your healing coefficients and base heals when they are lower than Priests.

And on that note, to the few Paladins that are brought to speed clears for buffs, minmaxing is pointless. HPS doesn't improve clear times. If you wan't to take a piece of gear that should instead go to a Priest because "I will do more healing in MC and on Vael with this piece" then go right ahead, but that is actually fucking retarded. Not really a way to sugar coat that one.
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Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

by poe » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:37 am

Healers minmaxing doesn't improve clear speeds? It lets you drop more healers to bring in more dps.

DrearyYew wrote:If you wan't to take a piece of gear that should instead go to a Priest because "I will do more healing in MC and on Vael with this piece" then go right ahead, but that is actually fucking retarded. Not really a way to sugar coat that one.

Same could be said about a paladin taking priest or caster loot because BIS list with non-optimal stat weights told so.

And how are priests better healers than paladins and all healer loot should go to priests first? Both have their own roles to fill where they excel at.

I would like to point it out again that for pure healing (that is any encounter under 5minutes where you have to cast 100% of the time FoL R6, so everything in MC/BWL and bigger portion of AQ40) your BIS lists won't change much.

For longer fights(or if you enjoy using lots of HLs) you will need to start stacking some mp5/int/crit instead of healing, and this is where the items start to change a bit. But remember that you won't face such situation in your typical progression raid where your raid has 10-13 healers because you simply have too many healers to heal up the damage taken so you will be casting R6 20-70% of the time or downrank heavily to not overheal. This should let you last longer than any encounter there is in vanilla.

You don't seem very enthuastic about optimizing the stat weights so I guess I can take my rambling elsewhere. :D
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