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Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:23 pm
by JCarrill0
DrearyYew wrote:Yeah, I'll update the OP with links today, as well as BiS lists through Naxx that I did the calculations on earlier.

Sticky had been requested!

Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:18 pm
by rooik
rooik wrote:ur current avaible gear priority is abit off.

Helm: Helm of the Lifegiver, Gives better stats (+healing, spellcrit) than Insigthful Hood.
Shoulders: Forgot the Animist's Spaulders, second current avaible bis

plz fix

Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:54 pm
by DrearyYew
I would update it, but every time I try to update it, it erases all of my edits, which is extremely frustrating given it takes 30 minutes to edit in the first place.

Gonna talk to a GM about this shit, but in the mean time I have the updated version locally stored for when they fix this shit.

E: Fixed

Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:35 am
by poe
Can you post some math how you came up with the stat weights?

Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:18 am
by smilkovpetko
poe wrote:Can you post some math how you came up with the stat weights?


Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:47 pm
by DrearyYew
This is some older math from just before the BWL release, but it's where I got it all from.

The average cast for a Holy Paladin is a R4 FoL.

Flash of Light (Rank 4): 1.5s cast, 234.64 average heal, 90 mana cost, 48% Healing Power scaling.

Paladins gain no mana regeneration from Spirit.

Paladins gain 1 Spell Crit for every 29.5 Intellect, and have a base Intellect of 70.

Paladins gain the entire cost of a spell back if it crits. Effectively, for each point of Spell Crit, the cost of each spell is reduced by 1%, as well as a 0.5% increase to all healing.

The Paladin BiS List is as follows. We will use this to derive precise stat weights.

Mish'undare, Circlet of the Mind Flayer: 35 Healing, 24 Intellect, 2% Spell Crit
Choker of the Fire Lord: 34 Healing, 7 Intellect
Wild Growth Spaulders: 62 Healing, 12 Intellect
Shroud of Pure Thought: 33 Healing, 11 Intellect, 6 MP5
Robes of the Exalted: 68 Healing, 5 Intellect
Gallant's Wristguards: 29 Healing, 14 Intellect
Harmonious Gauntlets: 51 Healing, 5 Intellect
Corehound Belt: 62 Healing, 16 Intellect
Empowered Leggings: 77 Healing, 12 Intellect, 1% Spell Crit
Boots of Pure Thought: 62 Healing, 12 Intellect
Pure Elementium Band: 53 Healing, 10 Intellect
Cauterizing Band: 46 Healing, 12 Intellect
Rejuvenating Gem: 66 Healing, 9 MP5
Shard of the Scale: 14 MP5
Lok'amir il Romathis: 84 Healing, 18 Intellect
Lei of the Lifegiver: 53 Healing, 3 MP5

Total: 829 Healing, 275.88 Intellect (after 1.21x modifier), 3% Spell Crit, 32 MP5

First, we're going to convert Intellect into Spell Crit to calculate the total cost reduction on spells.

Spell Crit = 5 + 3 + ( 275.88 / 29.5 ) = 17.35% (note that this does not include Raid Buffs outside of Blessing of Kings)

So the cost of all spells is on average reduced by 17.35%, and the healing of all spells is on average increased by 8.68%. With these numbers in mind, we get the new values for R4 FoL:

Flash of Light (Rank 4): 1.5s cast, 255.01 average heal, 76.69 mana cost, 52.17% Healing Power scaling.

Now, over a 5 second interval, R4 FoL is cast 3 times if the Paladin is casting 90% of the time. That's 230.07 mana spent and 156.51% of the Paladin's Healing Power healed every 5 seconds, plus the base of 765.03 healing. Paladins only gain mana back from MP5 (remember that the Illumination talent and Spell Crit has already been factored in) so calculating the percentage of mana gained back of the maximum potential mana spent over a 5 second interval is quite easy. At 32 MP5, a Paladin gains back 12.52% of their maximum potential spent mana over a period of 5 seconds. Now we must calculate how much healing a Paladin will do over the 5 second interval, which comes to 2062.50 healing (2291.67 healing if casting 100% of the time). So MP5, over the course of 5 seconds, equates to 286.92 healing. This gives us the total effective healing of a Paladin over a 5 second interval to 2349.42 healing.

We can now calculate the stat weights given the above calculations. Keep in mind that these calculations have artificially reduced the value for MP5 because it overlaps with Spell Crit, and Spell Crit is much more easily obtained and much more effective.

Healing Power: 1
MP5: 1.91
Spell Crit: 20.34
Intellect: 1
Spirit: 0

As gear improves, these values should change very very minorly, but not enough to really make a difference as far as BiS items go. Healing Power and Spell Crit help eachother, that is, the higher your Healing Power, the better Spell Crit is, and vice versa. However, since Healing Power is being used as the control in this scale, that is, everything is measures as a ratio to Healing Power, the weights for Intellect and Spell Crit will stay the same. MP5, on the other hand, will decrease, since it does not share the same relationship with Healing Power that Spell Crit does. The best healing items in AQ and Naxx have MP5 on them regarless, and would be BiS even if they had 0 MP5 on them, just because Vanilla itemization is... well, Vanilla itemization.

Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:09 pm
by smilkovpetko
Intellect: 1

Can you give us math and formula how you got this value? explain it please.

you did not mention anything how you got this value.

The person above
poe wrote:
Can you post some math how you came up with the stat weights?

Requested math , you gave for all stats except Intellect .

Please enlighten us.

Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:40 pm
by DrearyYew
Intellect is derived straight from Spell Crit, because that's what it gives, plus a small value to account for the mana pool increase it provides

Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:52 pm
by smilkovpetko
Now, over a 5 second interval, R4 FoL is cast 3 times if the Paladin is casting 90% of the time.

FoL max rank, FoL medium rank, FoL lowest rank. With this you cover the most mana efficient spell, the strongest heal and the most efficient when considering both. Actually this chart says something else as well: Using FoL rank 1 and rank 6 would be sufficient and better than using any rank in between (so instead of using FoL rank 4 21 times you would be slightly better off using rank 1 10 times and rank 6 11 times -> same mana costs but 11 hps more). But the difference is so insignificant (~1.9% more hps) that is doesn’t compensate for the concentration you have to sacrifice.

But there is another conclusion hidden in this. The paladin has two resources to heal. The obvious is mana, the other is time. A paladin heals with FoL rank 1 nearly for free so as long you have enough time you could heal everything, mana only “adds” to your heals. A heal function would look like that:
H(time,mana): time*HPSFoL-Rank1 + mana*factor

Every additional mana point spend will be converted into ~4,1 more heal, as long we go up the FoL ranks and with around 3,5 afterwards, equaling an average of 3,64.

With the conversion we can calculate the limit value for all heal efficient stats (mana/mana efficiency and direct heal increasing stats) int, spell crit, +Heal and mp5s.

Lessons 1: Normal fights (where you cast a lot) yield the following EP-Values with +Heal as the base value:
1 Int = 1 +Heal
1 Crit = 12 +Heal
1 mp5s = 3 +Heal

by DrearyYew » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Intellect is derived straight from Spell Crit, because that's what it gives, plus a small value to account for the mana pool increase it provides

Now to enlighten you why 1 int = 1+ Heal ,
Divine Intellect will result value converting from 1 intellect into 1.1 because it increase it by 10%.

Re: Holy Paladin BiS and Pre-Raid BiS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:08 pm
by poe
Wall of text inc., sorry if the text sounds harsh sometimes, it's not my intention :D

So the stats get their value from 2 things at the same time:
1) how much more your heals hit for if you get the stat
2) how much longer can you heal for and thus do more overall healing

Your quote didn't really clarify everything:
1) why is 1int=1healing, when 1crit=20.34healing and with bok 24.38int=1crit?

using above weights, we get 1int=20.34*1/24.38=0.834healing
if we don't include the mana pool gained. Then again, there wasn't any calculations how much
the increased mana pool is worth in healing.

2) why is 1mp5=1.91healing, when based on the rank4 FoL calculations:

32mp5 = 286.92 more healing done in 5sec (3casts)
<=>1mp5 = 8.96625
now we want to know how much more we need +healing to heal that much more in 3 casts
(8.96625/3)/(15/35) (why was coefficient 48% when it should be 42.857%? nost thing?)
we get that 1mp5=6.97375healing for FoL R4 when you cast 90% of the time.

3) why is 1crit=20.34healing?

lets take the gear quoted, you will heal with r4 FoL on average

increasing your crit by 1% you will heal for 0.5% more which is
3.1038 more, which is 3.1038/(15/35)=7.242healing

and you save 0.01*90mana per cast. If we take previous example of 3 casts in 5sec,
you will save 2.7mana in 5seconds which is 2.7mp5.

so if we use your 1mp5=1.92healing,

based on previously calculated new 1mp5=8.697375healing we get

**EDIT: And these values would again change how much 1int is worth, to either <0.6healing or >1.3healing

4) why was rank4 FoL used as the only example?

(I don't propose those new calculated weights as the real weights, I only calculated them
with the info given above to prove that something seems wrong with the stat weights.)

Shouldn't we calculate how long we can heal for with specific gear, buffs, consumables, spell and
cast% and
a)calculate how much more healing 1 cast gains from specific stats
b)calculate how much more total healing we can do before going oom with specific stats

Then use a) stat weights when you know you dont go oom, and use b) stat weights
when you know you need the extra mana.

In case a) mp5 is worthless, int only gains value because it gives crit, and crit
only gains value from the increased healing it does, not from illumination

In case b) mp5, int and crit will gain huge value because they give you mana so you can
do more overall healing during the encounter at the cost of HPS.

All in all this won't change the BIS gear lists much (or in some cases at all) for pure healing
and you will still clear all of vanilla with competent healing squad if you use old stat weights.
This new info will mostly be useful for ppl who want to save on consumables (eh), their raid team
isn't the best(dps low, other healers slack, bad tactics, overhealing, etc) and speedclears.

In speedclears you want to maximize your healing capability so you can drop healers for more dps
(especially in AQ40/naxx where you might have to start casting FoL 100% of the time with reduced
healing squad and the encounters will take longer than 5 minutes so you might have to stack some
mp5/crit/int). And of course we don't want to give people false information.

Ideally we would have 1 BIS list for pure healing and another list with nice replacements which give
you mp5/crit/int for reasons listed above.