How will Ret Pallies justify their raid spot?

[smilkovpetko]

Im bored lets argue about something

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 60#p263184

debate for you.

[stimz]

"I thought we were friends..."

[Cysthen]

Reroll a Hunter and Equip Nightfall, Thats how.

[TastyTaste]

mfw he mentions ele shamans for raiding, they run oom in 20 seconds even after mana potion/runes.

find an ele shaman that gets into raids and just look at the dps it does.

[Mryul]

If you get full world buffs before raid and use all possible consumables at each raid, including flask of spell power, then I'm sure people don't mind bringing you. But you'll fall behind when the rest of the raid does the same on progression content, if you get a spot there at all.

[shamwow]

If you get full world buffs before raid and use all possible consumables at each raid, including flask of spell power, then I'm sure people don't mind bringing you. But you'll fall behind when the rest of the raid does the same on progression content, if you get a spot there at all.

You do realize that 90% of the ret community who had had 35% melee crit buffed on servers got compared to bis rogues with tier 3. None of those ret paladins even came anywhere close to being bis.
Just to remind you a bis paladin should crit on nearly every seal of command and hit and judgement. This means a crit of 60% with songflower, 68% with rallying and a ferals leader of the pack.

This means numbers of a 1700 seal of command, 1500+ swing at nearly 70% of the time
and a 900 judgement of command crit every 8 seconds at ~40% of the time (excluding agility)


Melee Crit Ret/Reckoning

Just to show you an example. These are the common gears players think are bis such as the Avengers gear

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23668
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23068

To never realize the bis items for a paladin are these

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23071
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21599
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=22961

Sacrificing 35 strength for 22 agility is a must. At this point strength isn't as good as hitting for 700 with enormous crit when youre getting more then enough strength from buffs, there isn't enough crit from gear. There is just WAYY too little crit on gear.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23226
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=11726 (very underrated)
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=22798
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18821 (strength stats)
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23045
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=22936
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23053
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18817
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23667
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19387
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=13965
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=22954
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=17774 (for reck/mobs)
9 strength bracers
25 agility 2 hand
15 agility gloves
7 agility boots
3 agility cape
8 agility helm/leggings
Might of the scourge shoulders

Elixir of the mongoose, juju buffs, sunfruit, firewater, kings, might, wilds, elemental sharpening stone, songflower, leader of the pack, shout, grilled squid or 20 strength dumplings, Ground Scorpok Assay,
Flask of Supreme, giants, trueshot aura, other possible buffs.

Raidwise this buffed ret paladin might eclipse the damage of a spell damage paladin but that's only if they are both ret and raid buffed. This isn't duelwise and the raid paladin can reach a possible high crit chance. In a duel he would have around 45% crit.

If the ret paladin doesn't reach a high enough crit he will lose. Though a reckoning paladin in a raid using 2 adds to stack him will do triple the damage of a ret paladin. All you need are 2 non elite mobs since 4 wouldnt help if your weapon speed is 3.8. 4 adds is needed for a 1 hand spell damage paladin with a 1 hand of 1.5 speed because of mob attack speed or 1.7 with haste enchants in order to eclipse 2.5k dps. Use runes or mana potion if you use consecration.

The question is, A 68% crit soc reckadin using 2 non elite mobs to fuel bombs in a raid should theoretically outperform even a spell damage scaling paladin with the gear below. However! A spell damage reckadin using 4 mobs which a 2 handed paladin cannot use (limited to 2 with MoM) should outdps the 2hand MoM 68% reckadin.

Spell damage Reckoning

The spell damage you are using will be shadow/fire and holy spell damage as a spell damage reckadin. You also want a fast 1.5 speed 1 hand so you can swing with more bombs if you have 4 mobs meaning you should do even more then the melee crit paladin. Dps should be over 2900 with consecration and 3000 with exorcism. Even if you didnt spec sanctity aura another ret paladin should have it.
Lifestealing, A slow 1 hand like Misplaced Servo arm should be tested with 2 mobs, Ebon hand, other spell damage scaling 1 hand/2hand weapons that proc alot, shadow oil, proc trinkets, fire damage necklace/gloves + enormous spell damage gear, or without the gloves: necklace + T2 (If both judgements aren't hitting like a truck, skip it, they should hit 1200+ every 8 sec)

This type of spell damage paladin also has the opportunity to stack additional reckoning bombs from 2 items affected by spell crit every 2-5 minutes. They are:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=10646
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=20520

Spell crit items are used with the rallying cry and songflower giving 15% spell crit alone + intellect and gear.

(So my point is, excluding any reckadins gaining stacks to reach more dps than 3-4 players)
I believe its not impossible for a ret paladin to have a spot, if he has the required gear, Im sure he wont a problem keeping up with them. A naxxrammas ret paladin came 5th on the sw stats behind the rogues and his crit chance was much much lower in t2.5, even if they didn't have t3, he had dark edge instead of MoM.
His crit chance in that gear I can tell would of been in the 40s. He wasn't critting on both seal of command and his melee swing enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXNWvytYbyo

Its not impossible to make a ret paladin beat a bis rogue.
Its just hard to gear a bis paladin.
But then again, nothing is hard for itachi.

[Smiter]

This is how good ret deeps can be:

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=36769

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 69&Fight=4

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 69&Fight=3

[shamwow]

This is how good ret deeps can be:

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidO ... Raid=36769

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 69&Fight=4

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 69&Fight=3

That's impressive for the current raiding gear. I would get this if you do not have it.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=11726

[Smiter]

That isn't updated is it?

Edit: It is not updated