Is it worth it?

Is it worth it?

by theunknowing » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:14 am

Hello all, ive been a prot paladin on retail for over 8 years. I didn't play in vanilla but i always heard that pally's weren't really good in vanilla or always just used for buffing, i recently joined nostalrius and have been trying to find a class id like to play. I keep wanting to play paladin but have my reservations because im not sure how good they are or how they will perform so ive been leveling a warrior tank cause i know they will be good.

So if any one could clarify for me how paladins actually work in vanilla that would be awesome, im just not convinced yet that id be much use endgame as a pally.
User avatar
theunknowing
Grunt
Grunt
 

Re: Is it worth it?

by DrearyYew » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:04 am

Can't tank in raids because of our main mitigation being tied to being Crit, which is absolutely unacceptable when tanking bosses. There are a couple of situations where Paladin Tanks shine, like Nefarian adds or Suppression Room in BWL, but these instances are few and far between.

Retribution is a flexible pick that can heal, dps, or even tank in certain situations (see above). However, a Retribution spec'd Paladin will not be masters of any of them. They are often used in raid settings to be a flexible member that can do whatever is needed based on the nature of the fight. However, because guilds can be extremely tryhard and elitist, they often do not see any need for a Ret Paladin.

Holy is by far the best talent tree for a Paladin. They are just behind Priests in terms of healing effectiveness, and provide immense utility through blessings and auras. In later stages of raiding (AQ/Naxx), Holy Paladins become insanely powerful as they are virtually unable to run out of mana thanks to the Illumination talent.

In terms of PvP, there are obviously some differences. Prot is very effective against melee classes, but useless against anything else. Retribution is amazing if they accept their role as a support and not DPS - this is the mistake that most Ret Paladins make in PvP. Just sit back, throw some heals and blessings, and if someone gets in range of you, you have potential to one-shot. As for Holy, Holy Paladins are by far the best PvP Healers, and it isn't even close. They effectively trade off the 1-shot capabilities of a Ret Paladin, and in turn get greatly increased healing effectiveness and tankiness as they will always be wielding a shield.
Dreary - Human "Needs No Mana" Holy Paladin
User avatar
DrearyYew
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 

Re: Is it worth it?

by smilkovpetko » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:10 pm

DrearyYew wrote:Can't tank in raids because of our main mitigation being tied to being Crit, which is absolutely unacceptable when tanking bosses. There are a couple of situations where Paladin Tanks shine, like Nefarian adds or Suppression Room in BWL, but these instances are few and far between.

Retribution is a flexible pick that can heal, dps, or even tank in certain situations (see above). However, a Retribution spec'd Paladin will not be masters of any of them. They are often used in raid settings to be a flexible member that can do whatever is needed based on the nature of the fight. However, because guilds can be extremely tryhard and elitist, they often do not see any need for a Ret Paladin.

Holy is by far the best talent tree for a Paladin. They are just behind Priests in terms of healing effectiveness, and provide immense utility through blessings and auras. In later stages of raiding (AQ/Naxx), Holy Paladins become insanely powerful as they are virtually unable to run out of mana thanks to the Illumination talent.

In terms of PvP, there are obviously some differences. Prot is very effective against melee classes, but useless against anything else. Retribution is amazing if they accept their role as a support and not DPS - this is the mistake that most Ret Paladins make in PvP. Just sit back, throw some heals and blessings, and if someone gets in range of you, you have potential to one-shot. As for Holy, Holy Paladins are by far the best PvP Healers, and it isn't even close. They effectively trade off the 1-shot capabilities of a Ret Paladin, and in turn get greatly increased healing effectiveness and tankiness as they will always be wielding a shield.



Can't tank in raids because of our main mitigation being tied to being Crit, which is absolutely unacceptable when tanking bosses. There are a couple of situations where Paladin Tanks shine, like Nefarian adds or Suppression Room in BWL, but these instances are few and far between.

This is clearly wrong , Our main mitigation is tied to Block by Shield , Sanctuary and Def cap . Whoever think that paladin should eat crits for Boss is stupid .
We are best AoE Tankers but what you just said about Raid Tanking is just stupid and wrong information.

Here is evidence that Paladin can easy Tank any Boss in raid :

Patchwerk = Hardest damage output toward soakers Tanks . (paladin do that job easy)

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 8473_o.jpg

Maexxna = Hardest and Strongest damage output toward any Tank in game that exist.
(no boss can't hit harder than Maexxna) (paladin did that job easy again)

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 8017_o.jpg

Melee Twins (immune to all spells but never immune to holy) Second Hardest Boss in Game that have high damage output toward any Tank in game that exist. (paladin did that job easy)

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 0711_o.jpg

The highest Aggro Intensive Boss in game where Warriors have extremely chance to fail on aggro. (paladin did that job easy like cake)

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 7949_o.jpg

Hakkar (last boss that "require taunt) is still easy and doable for those that know how to actually tank using Boss Mechanics (easy as Paladin)

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 1276_o.jpg

Sulfuron Harbringer Boss that got Multiple Adds , Warriors beside the fact that they tanking many targets , they are still under Paladin on Aggro which is on 1 Target compare to them.

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 6300_o.jpg

@theunknowing , before someone brainwash you in game or servers i want to point out (as 10 years protection paladin and vanilla tanker).

What is our weakness :

1. Our abilities in Privacy Servers are extremely Broken and doesn't work.
2. Overall population knowledge is not based on Theory facts like we had in Retail before, it is just some false elitist delusional ideology .
3. You need to manage good your mana and use Spell Damage Weapon (remember in TBC) it is same as in Vanilla .

Don't forget : We have all the required tools and Gear for every single Boss that exist in game , (including preraid def cap) and high Avoidance,Block damage etc. Our aggro is based on how much strong your Spell Damage Weapon is (including sp on weap ench , sp consumes etc) .

Greetings by Killerduki .

Here is my Youtube Channel :

https://www.youtube.com/user/killerduki/videos

How Paladin looks like in Raid and Bossfight :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXV1lqIJr9w

How Paladins are special on aoe Kiting with support of mage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1_YEl0Yp8I


Don't hesitate to visit my Youtube Channel for upcoming Nostalrius Videos how to play Protection Paladin.

also visit my Twitch (currently inactive) but in future for educational videos .

http://www.twitch.tv/killerduki
/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
User avatar
smilkovpetko
Legionnaire
Legionnaire
 

Re: Is it worth it?

by theunknowing » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:56 pm

Thanks for the info, i think i will give pally a go and see how it turns out. I did watch your vids Killerduki and prot seems like its just fine in a raid environment so i think i will give it a go and see how it is.
User avatar
theunknowing
Grunt
Grunt
 

Re: Is it worth it?

by DrearyYew » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:46 pm

Redoubt 5/5: Increases your chance to block attacks with your shield by 30% after being the victim of a critical strike. Lasts 10 seconds or 5 blocks.

That's why you can't tank raids. You are just inferior to Protection Warriors in every single way, and no serious guild will have a Protection Paladin tank bosses. Not only is a Protection Warrior better suited to mitigating damage, but their itemization is also a million times better. Sorry, it's just the way it is. If you want to play Prot Paladin, wait for TBC, they are arguably the best tanks in TBC, and it's because they finally change Redoubt to something useful.
Dreary - Human "Needs No Mana" Holy Paladin
User avatar
DrearyYew
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 

Re: Is it worth it?

by smilkovpetko » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:14 pm

DrearyYew wrote:Redoubt 5/5: Increases your chance to block attacks with your shield by 30% after being the victim of a critical strike. Lasts 10 seconds or 5 blocks.

That's why you can't tank raids. You are just inferior to Protection Warriors in every single way, and no serious guild will have a Protection Paladin tank bosses. Not only is a Protection Warrior better suited to mitigating damage, but their itemization is also a million times better. Sorry, it's just the way it is. If you want to play Prot Paladin, wait for TBC, they are arguably the best tanks in TBC, and it's because they finally change Redoubt to something useful.



We have Holy Shield , we have Shield specialization , or you are acting like clueless paladin .

You can't argue about mitigation because Paladins using extra 30% Block Value and extra Strength make them also Blocking tons amount of damage too .

And not true about Gear, Paladin Tank and Warrior are different ways and different itemization , which in fact Preraid gear and T1 gear for warrior are equally the same lvl, Paladin is also using offsets which are arguably as much good as the T2 .

Anyway DrearyYew never played Protection Paladin or failed badly so he is ashame to accept that he is noob paladin player. Which in fact his trashtalking and pointing Redoubt proves that.

If we can't tank then obviously for DrearyYew my Screenshots and Videos are just Illusion that he will never accept what's in there as Evidence. (calling Theoloras , at least he was active during such times when i Progress Maintanked Bosses in Peenix) .
/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
User avatar
smilkovpetko
Legionnaire
Legionnaire
 

Re: Is it worth it?

by DrearyYew » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:39 am

you sound mad
Dreary - Human "Needs No Mana" Holy Paladin
User avatar
DrearyYew
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 

Re: Is it worth it?

by justclassic » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:38 am

smilkovpetko wrote:
You can't argue about mitigation because Paladins using extra 30% Block Value and extra Strength make them also Blocking tons amount of damage too .


I'm not gonna argue with you about tanking capabilities as I also think that a Paladin is capable of tanking every fight in the game (except maybe 4 horsemen). Neither do I want to argue about which tank is the best.

But "tons of damage" is really miss leading IF! we talk about raiding and tanking bosses.

Lets say you have the currently best shield available (chromagus shield) which has 54 block on it. This value is modified by the paladin talent resulting in 16 additional block value. Now the shield also has increased block value of 19 and let's assume you also got styleens scarab for another 24 block value.

If you add all these we recieve 113. As a last step we need to add (( strength - 20 ) / 20 ) to get the added block value from strength. Lets say you got 200 strength which would result in another 19 block value from strength.

So in the end we get 132 damage blocked each time we block.

This is amazing for dungeons but you two were arguing about raid's .let's say the average boss encounter will hit you for like 2k in current raid's after armor was calculated . So if you block 132 of those 2k that would be ~6.6% of the hit. I'd say a healer wouldn't even see the difference between a blocked and a non - blocked attack. He needs to heal you anyway.
justclassic
Senior Sergeant
Senior Sergeant
 

Re: Is it worth it?

by smilkovpetko » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:42 pm

justclassic wrote:
smilkovpetko wrote:
You can't argue about mitigation because Paladins using extra 30% Block Value and extra Strength make them also Blocking tons amount of damage too .


I'm not gonna argue with you about tanking capabilities as I also think that a Paladin is capable of tanking every fight in the game (except maybe 4 horsemen). Neither do I want to argue about which tank is the best.

But "tons of damage" is really miss leading IF! we talk about raiding and tanking bosses.

Lets say you have the currently best shield available (chromagus shield) which has 54 block on it. This value is modified by the paladin talent resulting in 16 additional block value. Now the shield also has increased block value of 19 and let's assume you also got styleens scarab for another 24 block value.

If you add all these we recieve 113. As a last step we need to add (( strength - 20 ) / 20 ) to get the added block value from strength. Lets say you got 200 strength which would result in another 19 block value from strength.

So in the end we get 132 damage blocked each time we block.

This is amazing for dungeons but you two were arguing about raid's .let's say the average boss encounter will hit you for like 2k in current raid's after armor was calculated . So if you block 132 of those 2k that would be ~6.6% of the hit. I'd say a healer wouldn't even see the difference between a blocked and a non - blocked attack. He needs to heal you anyway.


perhaps you forgot to add styleen + 30% increase from it , or the result from str + 30% increase from it.

nevermind the fact that we have sanctuary which you completely forgotten . Or perhaps the Buffs/Consumes we gain with extra Strength .

Either way you also forget that there is Crusader Enchant too for certain surviving task.
/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is gear
User avatar
smilkovpetko
Legionnaire
Legionnaire
 

Re: Is it worth it?

by justclassic » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:03 pm

smilkovpetko wrote:
perhaps you forgot to add styleen + 30% increase from it , or the result from str + 30% increase from it.

nevermind the fact that we have sanctuary which you completely forgotten . Or perhaps the Buffs/Consumes we gain with extra Strength .

Either way you also forget that there is Crusader Enchant too for certain surviving task.


Hey ,

The talent only effects the white value on the shield, neither additional block value or block value gained from strength.

Sanctuary decreases dmg taken by 24 BEFORE! armor calculation. A decently geared tank will have ~60% dmg reduction or even more. this results in sanctuary actually decreasing a hit by ~10 dmg. Still I don't know why sanctuary is a thing in terms of dmg reduction and block as it's dmg reducing part is completely unrelated to blocking ?!

I just made a shot in the dark with 200 strength. Lets say he got 400 that would result in 20 more block value than before.

So with 400 strength we would reduce 154 dmg on a block. That's not really changing my point.


Also why do you mention crusader enchant ? Didn't you always say paladin tank should use spellpower enchant ?

So far justclassic
justclassic
Senior Sergeant
Senior Sergeant
 

Next

Return to Paladin