Is it worth it?

[smilkovpetko]

Def stance by warrior from 1k Damage will reduce
100 without armor
75 with 25% armor
50 with 50% armor
25 with 75% armor

now - you said our block value is too poor to cover that 25 damage?

let me give you an example :

(assuming patch 1.12)
400 Strength + 10% = 440 Strength = 21 block value
glyph of deflection = 23 block value
styleen = 24 block value
qiraji bulwark = 70 block value

= 138 + 30% = 179

Using glyph bonus = 179 + (235+30%) = 179 + 305 = 484 damage blocked (armor is unaffected) .

now let me guess that (we wont use that glyph) 179 damage - 138 = 38 damage which is more than your 25 damage reduced by def stance .

here is your foul mitigation experiment (who mitigate more damage) .

[justclassic]

Def stance by warrior from 1k Damage will reduce
100 without armor
75 with 25% armor
50 with 50% armor
25 with 75% armor

Yes that would be the absolute value of def stance. The thing is I never said anything else.

All I wrote was that Def Stance always reduces damage taken by 10%. While sanctuary reduces it by a fixed amount of damage (24).

That makes Def stance better than sanctuary the moment a hit would hit higher than 240 dmg (raw dmg before armor), because at 240 dmg both would reduce the same %-value of the attack.

240 - 10% (24) = 216 vs 240 - 24 = 216

100 - 10% (10) = 90 vs 100 - 24 = 76

1000 - 10% (100) = 900 vs 1000 - 24 = 976

It doesn't matter if you use armor for these calculation or not. Putting in armor would decrease the difference between def stance and armor by the same % than your dmg reduction. (Read: 75% armor would reduce the difference between def stance and sanctuary by 75%)

now - you said our block value is too poor to cover that 25 damage?

No I didn't say that. I said that our block value is too poor to cover a big enough part of a raid boss swing to matter.

let me give you an example :

(assuming patch 1.12)
400 Strength + 10% = 440 Strength = 21 block value
glyph of deflection = 23 block value
styleen = 24 block value
qiraji bulwark = 70 block value

= 138 + 30% = 179

Using glyph bonus = 179 + (235+30%) = 179 + 305 = 484 damage blocked (armor is unaffected) .

now let me guess that (we wont use that glyph) 179 damage - 138 = 38 damage which is more than your 25 damage reduced by def stance .

here is your foul mitigation experiment (who mitigate more damage) .

Well first we aren't in 1.12 yet and neither the glyph (saphiron) nor the bulwark (aq40 q) is in the game. But I'm ready to play your game so I will come to those items later.

Second you compare your dmg reduction from your block to 25 (which was your assumed mitigation of Def stance). This has 2 flaws:

1. Those 25 dmg were calculated on a raw 1000 dmg swing. I just checked a random boss from mc (garr) and he hits for about 6000 raw dmg. In general bosses hit that high, the further you go into raid progression the harder bosses hit. (F.e. patchwork hits for more than 8k raw dmg (his normal swings, not hatefuls))

2. Those 25 dmg were calculated on 75% armor. No plate tank is gonna reach more than ~17k armor permanently to have a permanent 75% dmg reduction from armor.


Lets do two calculations. One for current gear on a current boss and one for dream gear from naxx boss vs naxx boss.

Current gear and current boss:

Boss: Garr (6000 raw dmg)
Block: ~155 block value (( 73 + 24 + 21 ) * 1,3 ) = chromagus shield, styleens and 440 str
Armor: 65% dmg reduction (roughly 11k armor needed for that)

So we compare now 35 block value increase from the talent vs Def Stance.

6000 * 0,35 = 2100 dmg

2100 * 0,1 = 210 dmg reduced by Def stance.


Naxx/Aq gear vs naxx boss:

Boss: patchwork (8000 raw dmg)
Block value: 414 ( with glyph activated but without talent), 414*1,3 = 538 ( 124 profit from the talent)
Armor: 70% (since we are geared with aq40 and naxx)

So let's compare 124 from talent vs Def stance:

8000 * 0,3 = 2400

2400 * 0,1 = 240 dmg reduced by Def stance.

Even with activated glyph def stance wins clearly vs the talent. And don't forget that Def stance also reduces magic damage as a bonus.

[smilkovpetko]

1. Those 25 dmg were calculated on a raw 1000 dmg swing. I just checked a random boss from mc (garr) and he hits for about 6000 raw dmg. In general bosses hit that high, the further you go into raid progression the harder bosses hit. (F.e. patchwork hits for more than 8k raw dmg (his normal swings, not hatefuls))

I said before and again i will repeat . before trash talk , make sure you learn .

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patchwerk_%28original%29

Normal hit with melee is 1800-2700 (depends on gear)

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=12057/garr#comments

My stats weren't that amazing, so I was getting hit from Garr for 500-600

And no Garr never hits for 6k Neither Patchwerk for 8k normal damage.

If Garr is pulled too far away from his adds, his adds become enraged and will hit Tier 2 geared tanks for 4-6k dmg.

Only adds if they are far from Boss, the boss normal hits are for more/less 1k raw.

Okay , let's just say that also block value gained from strength is effected. Still it doesn't change my first statement about this topic which said that regardless of how good your shield and additional block value is a block still doesn't reduce enough damage to take away a relevant amount of a raid boss swing.

Using glyph bonus = 179 + (235+30%) = 179 + 305 = 484 damage blocked (armor is unaffected) .

now let me guess that (we wont use that glyph) 179 damage - 138 = 38 damage which is more than your 25 damage reduced by def stance .

here is your foul mitigation experiment (who mitigate more damage) .

Yes that would be the absolute value of def stance. The thing is I never said anything else.

All I wrote was that Def Stance always reduces damage taken by 10%. While sanctuary reduces it by a fixed amount of damage (24).

Before you trash talk about "damage mitigation" doesn't always mean for sanctuary, but for block damage too.

Which in fact we are in way similar with warriors (on full t3 gear warriors benefit stamina and block value , on very bis gear paladin benefit avoidance and on long duration lesser crushing blows) . which in a way makes them more equal than what people trashtalk .

[justclassic]

1. I'd like to ask you to read and understand what I post, and then make a quote and write something to it.

2. please don't pull things out of thin air which aren't written anywhere in my posts or in the sources you provide . It's really making you look like someone who just wants to be right on any given point while completely ignoring any facts or sources delivered to him.

3. I don't understand your "trashtalk-thing" you keep repeating in most of your posts in this thread. If a person truly believes what he is writing (and I do believe what I write) than it is not some kind of trashtalk rather than an opinion or maybe an assumption. Everybody can be right or wrong about something but that doesn't give anyone the reason to tell him he's "trash-talking".

Small anecdote: the first post I red from you, around the time when nostalrius was released, you told people that 1 point of intellect gives 10 mana and even calculated with those.

I didn't acuse you of "trash-talking" rather than just writing that it is 15 mana per int , even though I knew that that post from you was completely wrong.

Lets get back to the topic

1. Those 25 dmg were calculated on a raw 1000 dmg swing. I just checked a random boss from mc (garr) and he hits for about 6000 raw dmg. In general bosses hit that high, the further you go into raid progression the harder bosses hit. (F.e. patchwork hits for more than 8k raw dmg (his normal swings, not hatefuls))

I said before and again i will repeat . before trash talk , make sure you learn .

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patchwerk_%28original%29

Normal hit with melee is 1800-2700 (depends on gear)

I told you that patchwork deals 8k raw damage with his normal hits. Raw means before any kind of armor, reduction or whatsoever is applied.

After that I gave you a calculation which showed that a naxx geared warrior with Def stance would take around 2160 dmg from a normal hit of patchwork. And sure this number depends on gear/armor.

That is exactly what you posted yourself yet you accuse me of trash-talking for posting it.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=12057/garr#comments

My stats weren't that amazing, so I was getting hit from Garr for 500-600

And no Garr never hits for 6k Neither Patchwerk for 8k normal damage.

Where in that source is the information that you want to use as an argument as I didn't see any information in there that would help in this discussion.

Like I said earlier make sure red my posts carefully, because so do I when I read your posts. Never did I ever say that garr or patchwork would hit a tank with that high damage. I said that those would be their raw damage swings before any reductions whatsoever. You pulled this out of thin air or simply didn't read my post.

I have checked multiple vanilla databases and they all state that the mc bosses hit for 4.000 - 8.000 raw dmg changing from boss to boss. If you have a viable source for any of these values please share it with me. I'm not looking for me to be right rather then just what is true, so if you have good sources please share.

Okay , let's just say that also block value gained from strength is effected. Still it doesn't change my first statement about this topic which said that regardless of how good your shield and additional block value is a block still doesn't reduce enough damage to take away a relevant amount of a raid boss swing.

Using glyph bonus = 179 + (235+30%) = 179 + 305 = 484 damage blocked (armor is unaffected) .

now let me guess that (we wont use that glyph) 179 damage - 138 = 38 damage which is more than your 25 damage reduced by def stance .

here is your foul mitigation experiment (who mitigate more damage) .

Yes that would be the absolute value of def stance. The thing is I never said anything else.

All I wrote was that Def Stance always reduces damage taken by 10%. While sanctuary reduces it by a fixed amount of damage (24).

Before you trash talk about "damage mitigation" doesn't always mean for sanctuary, but for block damage too.

I know that, because I red your post. And I answered once relating to sanctuary and once relating to block/block value. Yet you quote my answer relating to sanctuary and tell me that I didn't write about block ?!?! I did , you can check that out, just scroll up.

Which in fact we are in way similar with warriors (on full t3 gear warriors benefit stamina and block value , on very bis gear paladin benefit avoidance and on long duration lesser crushing blows) . which in a way makes them more equal than what people trashtalk .

I'm sorry but I'm not sure if I got that right since English isn't my native language.

Are you saying that a t3 warrior benefits the most from stamina and block value on his gear while a paladin benefits the the most from avoidance on his gear ? Also I didn't understand that short sentence about crushing blows.

Could you explain that in a simpler way or with other words so I get the context of your sentence ?

[smilkovpetko]

2. please don't pull things out of thin air which aren't written anywhere in my posts or in the sources you provide . It's really making you look like someone who just wants to be right on any given point while completely ignoring any facts or sources delivered to him.

I already gave you facts that Paladin using Block Value gives higher damage mitigation than Warrior. And this you tried to deny , which in purpose i open the discussion about damage reduction by "sanctuary" giving you example how def stance work too as it doesn't mitigate much higher than our Block Value .

3. I don't understand your "trashtalk-thing" you keep repeating in most of your posts in this thread. If a person truly believes what he is writing (and I do believe what I write) than it is not some kind of trashtalk rather than an opinion or maybe an assumption. Everybody can be right or wrong about something but that doesn't give anyone the reason to tell him he's "trash-talking".

Trash Talking is saying "you can't tank Raid Boss" which is lie and based on assumptions, because you actually denied all the evidence i gave as Screenshots and Videos that proves we can tank any raid Boss easy and do the job done same way as Warriors do.

Small anecdote: the first post I red from you, around the time when nostalrius was released, you told people that 1 point of intellect gives 10 mana and even calculated with those.

Assuming the mistake i made is not intentional to tell people "your spec suck" and should never be in raid, unlike your justification by giving false information and telling them to not spec or they can't raid .

I told you that patchwork deals 8k raw damage with his normal hits. Raw means before any kind of armor, reduction or whatsoever is applied.

Now

give us your sources "of they hit 6k raw damage" which is not true until tbc or more..


Because Wowwiki says that the boss hits 1800-2700 based on the gear , assuming that they didn't said full t3 geared Warrior .

Where in that source is the information that you want to use as an argument as I didn't see any information in there that would help in this discussion.

Like I said earlier make sure red my posts carefully, because so do I when I read your posts. Never did I ever say that garr or patchwork would hit a tank with that high damage. I said that those would be their raw damage swings before any reductions whatsoever. You pulled this out of thin air or simply didn't read my post.

I have checked multiple vanilla databases and they all state that the mc bosses hit for 4.000 - 8.000 raw dmg changing from boss to boss. If you have a viable source for any of these values please share it with me. I'm not looking for me to be right rather then just what is true, so if you have good sources please share.

What are your sources ? from privacy servers or retail ? , give us your sources to show your 8k raw dmg.

Are you saying that a t3 warrior benefits the most from stamina and block value on his gear while a paladin benefits the the most from avoidance on his gear ? Also I didn't understand that short sentence about crushing blows.

Warrior can "be immune on" crushing blows only 2 hits , later next 2 hits warriors are under 30% avoidance which gives him 70% vulnerable to crushing blows .

Unlike Warriors , Paladin's long duration Holy Shield Stacks make him stay in constant 75-80% under avoidance letting only 25%-20% to eat Crushing Blows , which in long term this is more viable for surviving .

And yes Warrior from T3 Gear benefits the most Stamina,Block Value while BiS Paladin Gear benefit the most parry,dodge,miss .

[justclassic]

2. please don't pull things out of thin air which aren't written anywhere in my posts or in the sources you provide . It's really making you look like someone who just wants to be right on any given point while completely ignoring any facts or sources delivered to him.

I already gave you facts that Paladin using Block Value gives higher damage mitigation than Warrior. And this you tried to deny , which in purpose i open the discussion about damage reduction by "sanctuary" giving you example how def stance work too as it doesn't mitigate much higher than our Block Value .

Yes a paladin gets 30% Block Value, I didn't deny that.

But I gave you a reasonable calculation showing that sanctuary gets less effective the higher the mob hits and the more armor we have since sanctuary does decrease a flat amount of dmg rather an %-based amount.

Also I showed you in a reasonable calculation that a block without any additional proccs or short buff trinkets reduces only a small part of a raid bosses swing. The further we will go in terms of raiding progression the less effective block will become in terms of how big of a chunk it takes of a boss swing.

3. I don't understand your "trashtalk-thing" you keep repeating in most of your posts in this thread. If a person truly believes what he is writing (and I do believe what I write) than it is not some kind of trashtalk rather than an opinion or maybe an assumption. Everybody can be right or wrong about something but that doesn't give anyone the reason to tell him he's "trash-talking".

Trash Talking is saying "you can't tank Raid Boss" which is lie and based on assumptions, because you actually denied all the evidence i gave as Screenshots and Videos that proves we can tank any raid Boss easy and do the job done same way as Warriors do.

I never denied a paladin being able to tank any boss in the game. I always said that they are capable of tanking any boss in the game except for maybe 4 horsemen, but I guess a nifty player could find a solution for that as well. But I still believe that a Warrior is a better maintain for most boss fights.

I even told someone else on the forums, like a day ago, that I'm sure he can tank any boss in this game. But I also told him that I believe a warrior has an easier time.

Small anecdote: the first post I red from you, around the time when nostalrius was released, you told people that 1 point of intellect gives 10 mana and even calculated with those.

Assuming the mistake i made is not intentional to tell people "your spec suck" and should never be in raid, unlike your justification by giving false information and telling them to not spec or they can't raid .

Neither is my intention to tell anyone that any spec in the game sucks. My chars on this server are a druid tank, a paladin tank and an ele shaman. I know exactly how it is to be told "we don't like that spec , so pls respecc or we don't need you".

But still I think it is important to showcase the reality rather than making us better than we are. There are certain situations where we shine, but sadly we are overall a little behind until tbc.

I told you that patchwork deals 8k raw damage with his normal hits. Raw means before any kind of armor, reduction or whatsoever is applied.

Now

give us your sources "of they hit 6k raw damage" which is not true until tbc or more..


Because Wowwiki says that the boss hits 1800-2700 based on the gear , assuming that they didn't said full t3 geared Warrior .

Neither do I think that they were talking about a t3 warrior. But a preraid dungeon geared warrior gets ~55% armor and 10% from def stance.

This leads to
6000 raw dmg
2700 dmg after armor
2430 dmg after def stance

Which would perfectly fit for your source from wowwiki saying that a tank gets hit for 1.8k - 2.7k based on gear.

Where in that source is the information that you want to use as an argument as I didn't see any information in there that would help in this discussion.

Like I said earlier make sure red my posts carefully, because so do I when I read your posts. Never did I ever say that garr or patchwork would hit a tank with that high damage. I said that those would be their raw damage swings before any reductions whatsoever. You pulled this out of thin air or simply didn't read my post.

I have checked multiple vanilla databases and they all state that the mc bosses hit for 4.000 - 8.000 raw dmg changing from boss to boss. If you have a viable source for any of these values please share it with me. I'm not looking for me to be right rather then just what is true, so if you have good sources please share.

What are your sources ? from privacy servers or retail ? , give us your sources to show your 8k raw dmg.

Yes like I said. Databases from several privat wow servers + a wiki entry you mentioned which stated a dmg after armor calculation which I recalculated to a raw value.

All of these indicated values between 7k and 10k. So I went for 8k. But like I said before if you have any great sources I'd be happy to see them as sources aren't always easy to find.

Are you saying that a t3 warrior benefits the most from stamina and block value on his gear while a paladin benefits the the most from avoidance on his gear ? Also I didn't understand that short sentence about crushing blows.

Warrior can "be immune on" crushing blows only 2 hits , later next 2 hits warriors are under 30% avoidance which gives him 70% vulnerable to crushing blows .

Unlike Warriors , Paladin's long duration Holy Shield Stacks make him stay in constant 75-80% under avoidance letting only 25%-20% to eat Crushing Blows , which in long term this is more viable for surviving .

And yes Warrior from T3 Gear benefits the most Stamina,Block Value while BiS Paladin Gear benefit the most parry,dodge,miss .

I think you are not right in terms of shield block. It's true that shield block only contains 2 charges (if specced ) compared to holy shields 4, but shield block has only 5 seconds cooldown while holy shield has 10 seconds, right ? So both grant the same amount of block charges over 10 seconds.

I don't think that a Warrior would drop below 30% avoidance without shield block. This is because both a paladin and a warrior are looking for 130 defrating on gear + 10 from talent to be crit immune. This 140 crit rating passively grant 5% block, dodge, parry and miss vs a bosslvl monster meele swing. Also both paladin and warrior have 5% block, dodge, parry and miss baseline. In addition both can talent another 5% parry. This leads to both paladin and warrior having at least 45% avoidance if they have enough defrating to be crit immune.

Also the part about crushing blows is a little incorrect.

It doesn't matter if you have 30% avoidance or 70% avoidance as both would have a chance of 15% to be crushed since wow works with a combat table system to calculate the result of attacks.

This old wow wiki entry from November 2006 explains it very well

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Crushing_ ... did=349008

Edit: BTW that means that a Paladin needs to get 72,4% avoidance before he becomes crush immune with holy shield while a warrior only needs 27,4% avoidance to become crush immune with shield block. I don't think 72,4% avoidance is achievable for a player regardless of what gear he wears.

[smilkovpetko]

But still I think it is important to showcase the reality rather than making us better than we are. There are certain situations where we shine, but sadly we are overall a little behind until tbc.

Like what part we are little behind until tbc ?

taunt ?

I told you that patchwork deals 8k raw damage with his normal hits. Raw means before any kind of armor, reduction or whatsoever is applied.

Neither do I think that they were talking about a t3 warrior. But a preraid dungeon geared warrior gets ~55% armor and 10% from def stance.

This leads to
6000 raw dmg
2700 dmg after armor
2430 dmg after def stance

Which would perfectly fit for your source from wowwiki saying that a tank gets hit for 1.8k - 2.7k based on gear.

I think you are misinformed in terms of shield block. It's true that shield block only contains 2 charges (if specced ) compared to holy shields 4, but shield block has only 5 seconds cooldown while holy shield has 10 seconds, right ? So both grant the same amount of block charges over 10 seconds.

I don't think that a Warrior would drop below 30% avoidance without shield block. This is because both a paladin and a warrior are looking for 130 defrating on gear + 10 from talent to be crit immune. This 140 crit rating passively grant 5% block, dodge, parry and miss vs a bosslvl monster meele swing. Also both paladin and warrior have 5% block, dodge, parry and miss baseline. In addition both can talent another 5% parry. This leads to both paladin and warrior having at least 45% avoidance if they have enough defrating to be crit immune.

Also the part about crushing blows is a little incorrect.

It doesn't matter if you have 30% avoidance or 70% avoidance as both would have a chance of 15% to be crushed since wow works with a combat table system to calculate the result of attacks.

This old wow wiki entry from November 2006 explains it very well

Many says that we are "eating crushing blows" the reason i mention this.

At end of the day - warriors are little better on mitigation damage at very bis gear (only at bosses that hit strong) , but paladins in other hand got much higher avoidance such as parry , miss , dodge.

the survival differences are irrelevant to compare but both are doing the same job easy . That's the point i talk all the time before someone jump over and telling people "paladins cant tank" or "cant survive" .

If you are skilled Paladin neither aggro is problem at all , since we are best aggro maker
(not talking about privacy server bugged abilities) (example is sor , one-handed etc) .

[DrearyYew]

It's not worth it, he obviously isn't listening. Let him think this is TBC and let him play Prot Paladin.

EDIT: Look at how he treats people on the bugtracker. Just ignore this guy and move on.

https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=418

[smilkovpetko]

It's not worth it, he obviously isn't listening. Let him think this is TBC and let him play Prot Paladin.

EDIT: Look at how he treats people on the bugtracker. Just ignore this guy and move on.

https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=418

(i treat people by giving them sources and evidence) .
In other hand you should see how i got denied by posting Blizzard Evidence there that attack Power Should never and never scale with Consecration. (they denied based on assumptions) .

Perhaps you should be ignored for trashtalking as clueless paladin ignoring the fact that i was one that already did every single boss in game that exist as Paladin MT in Vanilla.

[Droom91]

It's not worth it, he obviously isn't listening. Let him think this is TBC and let him play Prot Paladin.

EDIT: Look at how he treats people on the bugtracker. Just ignore this guy and move on.

https://report.nostalrius.org/plugins/tracker/?aid=418

(i treat people by giving them sources and evidence) .
In other hand you should see how i got denied by posting Blizzard Evidence there that attack Power Should never and never scale with Consecration. (they denied based on assumptions) .

Perhaps you should be ignored for trashtalking as clueless paladin ignoring the fact that i was one that already did every single boss in game that exist as Paladin MT in Vanilla.

Hi, do u play on PvE or PvP server ?
Would love to play with you.
My main since TBC till WoD was Paladin.