[PvP] The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.8!)

[Lazermon]

The disparity is definitely that we value crit differently. That we can agree on. The majority of the things you write are incredibly hard to decipher in a way that makes sense to me, and I simply have no interest in spending my time on doing that when I am as sure as I am on the values myself. I can still be wrong with things (the multiplier thing is interesting and will come into play when considering items that are extremely close), so it's not like I refuse input, but the way you have chosen to come with input in this thread is just not worth my time (im not getting paid to do this). If you KNOW you are right, you're simply gonna have to try some other method of convincing me. If that is by convincing other respectable people first or by cleaning your stuff up and explaining your math in a way that doesn't require more effort than deciphering heiroglyphs, (or by making another bis thread or something) that's up to you.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm not saying what you have written contains errors, I am saying I consider it a large effort in reading, understanding and debating.

[Dervin20]

I believe the disparity is from how you are determining how to value crit. I used to just say that if you crit once per 100 attacks it's like getting 1 more frostbolt or increasing your damage by 1%. However I began to question this method since assumes you are going from 0 -> 1% crit. If you calculate crit this way then it over values what damage crit gives you.

For example let's say you have 99% chance to crit then adding 1% wouldn't be a 1% damage increase. Reason is you basically get 99*2 crits and 1 non-crit frostbolt at 99% crit per 100 attacks. So going from 99% ->100% is basically 1/(99*2+1) = 1/(199) damage increase which is about half the value you get out of going from 0% -> 1% crit.

I saw that the value of crit and hit depends how much you already have. They also depend on your current spellpower because as you increase spellpower crit becomes better since it doubles you spell power (and base damage) when you crit. Same idea for hit you basically get an extra attack per 100 casts and the damage is determined by your spellpower + base damage.

Going from criting on 1/10 spells to 1/5 can be very good for your dps.

[sumail]

Fair enough, I really just posted this here because I think this a good thread where members can discuss this sort of thing. Anyway I'll try to explain my methodology for obtaining the equation I used to compare hit/crit/spellpower more clearly.

We know that the damage you do through hits is from both your base damage of the spell and your spell damage multiplied by the spell damage coefficient. Base damage for frostbolt = 486, and the spell damage coefficient = 0.814 (Although after doing some testing I really don't think this is true I believe it's closer to 0.914 but that's beside the point).

Anyway your damage from hits will then be:

486 + 0.814*Sp = Hit Damage

Note: Sp = your spellpower.

Now if we wanted to consider crits, let's assume our crit rate is 25%. If we wanted to compute our damage per 100 attacks we'd do:

25*2*Hit Damage + 75*Hit Damage = Total Damage

The 2 multiplied by the 25 is from the crit multiplier. So the equation just shows that 25 of our attacks will be multiplied by 2 and 75 of our attacks will simply be our hit damage, adding them together will give our total damage.

Now suppose we wanted to consider resists from lack of hit. Let's assume we have 90% chance to hit (+7 hit from gear).

In this case we'd break Total Damage into two groups, hits and misses.

0.90*Total Damage + 0.10 *Total Damage * 0 = Hit Adjusted Damage

So basically you can think of the 10% of spell that are resisted as losses that are multiplied by 0. Essentially since we only hit on 90% of the spells our damage goes down by 10% (ie multiplying our damage by 0.90).
And that's basically it. The equation I showed in my previous posts is this equation it's just more generalized. Anyway I hope this makes sense.

[Nostradamus]

What about NW gloves? Should they not be on the honorable mentions list?
The combo of mantle of the blackwing cabal and NW gloves is inferior to the pvp set, however it is probably the closest one behind? Bloodtinged gloves is an alternative if you're not hitcapped.

[Lazermon]

What about NW gloves? Should they not be on the honorable mentions list?
The combo of mantle of the blackwing cabal and NW gloves is inferior to the pvp set, however it is probably the closest one behind? Bloodtinged gloves is an alternative if you're not hitcapped.

I'l add them.

[Lazermon]

@Sumail
--
486 + 0.814*Sp = Hit Damage
--
Comment: I agree with your testing that using 0.914 (i use 0.925) is closer to the truth, this doesnt have to be because the frostbolt coef is wrong, but that something else strange is happening, and you solve it by simply changing the coef to make things look better.

--
Now if we wanted to consider crits, let's assume our crit rate is 25%. If we wanted to compute our damage per 100 attacks we'd do:

25*2*Hit Damage + 75*Hit Damage = Total Damage
--
Comment: assuming 100% hit, yes.

--
Now suppose we wanted to consider resists from lack of hit. Let's assume we have 90% chance to hit (+7 hit from gear).

In this case we'd break Total Damage into two groups, hits and misses.

0.90*Total Damage + 0.10 *Total Damage * 0 = Hit Adjusted Damage
--
Comment: hits can crit. (Assuming a two roll system and not some kind of broken one roll system that doesnt treat a crit like a crit, whether we are dealing with a two-roll or a broken one-roll is nothing I can answer)

The BiS spellpower is 803, total damage with your formula becomes 1219 (although you would with that gear have to sit and confirm yet again that the relation is correct and that you dont need to change the frostbolt coef yet again)

with that gear we have 99% hit so we can pretend we have 100% hit and go with the above formula for crit, using that, 1 crit is worth 12.19 damage, convert that again to spellpower with your coef and its worth 13.33 sp.

Assuming everything I did above is something you agree with, we have all of the information we need to do a comparision between ringos and bloodvine boots, which is 21 spellpower (ringos) vs 2 crit (bloodvine). Bloodvine boots come out on top with a 5.6sp difference.

I am yet to accept that multipliers are completely negligible, but just using your own formulas I end up with a result that favours bloodvine boots by a relatively large margin.

[sumail]

I also agree that hits can crit. The equation takes care of this, if you think about that 0.9 being multiplied by your hit and crit chances. Lets substitute Total Damage with 25*2*Hit Damage + 75*Hit Damage to the Hit Adjusted Damage equation.

0.90*(25*2*Hit Damage + 75*Hit Damage) + 0.10*0*(multiplied by 0 so doesn't matter)

So we just have
0.90*(25*2*Hit Damage + 75*Hit Damage), we can factor our Hit Damage and distrubute the 0.90 which will give us.

Hit Damage*(0.90*25*2 + 0.90*75), which becomes:
Hit Damage*(22.5*2 + 67.5)

We lost 2.5 crits and 7.5 hits due to the 90% hit chance. The crits lost relative to hits is the same ratio as your crit raite (25% of the losses are crits, 75% are hits). So it works consistent with a 2 roll system where increasing your hit chance can allow you to get more crits.

So for determining crit to spell power, assuming BIS has 803 spell power we compute our Hit Damage.
486 + 0.814*803 = 1,139.6

So using our Total Damage equation we'll assume our crit goes up 1% crit and compute the damage.
26*2*1,139.6 + 74*1,139.6 = 143,589.6

Okay now we want to know how much spellpower we'd need to add if we have 25% crit instead to achieve this damage.

25*2*Hit Damage + 75*Hit Damage = 143,589.6
Which becomes:
Hit Damage*(25*2 + 75) = 143,589.6
Hit Damage = 143,589.6 / (50 + 75)
Hit Damage = 1,148.7

Using the equation for what hit damage is we have:
486 + 0.814*Sp = 1,148.7
0.814*Sp = 1,148.7 - 486
Sp = (1,148.7 - 486) / 0.814 = 814.1

Our orginal Spellpower was 803 so we subtract that by this spellpower to obtain the spellpower increase we would need to acheive the same damage as increasing our crit by 1%.

814.1 - 803 = 11.1 spellpower.
For this case Ringo's is worse by 1 spellpower.

If you continue doing this calculation over and over for different crit rates you'll see that at 33% crit increasing your crit by 1% is worth 10.525 spellpower, pretty much on par with Ringos.

On a side note I do think that 0.814 is not the proper spellpower coefficient since the example I gave the other day showed that you needed 631 spellpower to hit for 1000 damage (on average), and I tested it with TOEP and I was doing 1050 damage with 633 spellpower. I attacked a bunch of mobs to determine my average damage at 458 spellpower and found that my average damage was 904 (ranged from 885-923) and back calculated the spellpower coefficient to be 0.913. Now if I use this 0.913 coefficient the value of spellpower goes up since we are multiplying it by a larger number. In the example above if you replace 0.814 with 0.913 you would get that 1% crit = 10.68 spellpower.

Anyway lemme know if any of this doesn't make sense I can try to further explain my thought process.

[Breesy]

lazermon

you said you wouldn't 8)

[Lazermon]

lazermon

you said you wouldn't 8)

This is seriously draining so much time and were debating single digit differences, but im stuck in it now eh

[Lazermon]

@sumail
I haven't looked at the hit part in the beginning of your post so I can't comment on that, I can comment on the rest though.

Everything looks great, the only minor issue is that if you change the value of the frostbolt damage from 486 to anything else, the result changes. Can you confirm (I can try to confirm this myself but im going to bed now and tomorrow contains a lot of raids) that the frostbolt average truly is 486?

Testing with 500 gives me this:
500 + 0.814*803 = 1153.6
26*2*1,153.6 + 74*1,153.6 = 145353.6
145353.6/(50+75) = 1162.8
(1162.8-500)/0.814 = 814.28
814.28 - 803 = 11.28 spellpower

which is a 0.16 sp difference, small enough, but if the average is off by like 50 instead of 16, it's pretty relevant.

About the multipliers: Yep, I am completely on your side here now, they do not matter one bit when comparing crit or hit vs sp (same with the frostbolt coef).

I will look at your hit math when I have time. Once we are in agreement regarding the hit math and the frostbolt average has been confirmed to be 486, I'l do some changes in the BiS list.