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Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:44 pm
by sumail
Wow nice catch! I never realized Arcane Instability gives you 3% more spell power too just thought it was 3% crit.

Okay so with Arcane Instability I was getting 469 average damage. So 469/1.03 = ~455. Then at 400 spellpower I was getting 804 average damage. So 804/1.03 = 782.

So now the spellpower coefficient becomes:

782 = 455 + B*400

B = (782 -455) / 400 = 0.815

Pretty much the same as 0.814 the difference is probably due to some rounding. 400*0.814 = 325.6 added damage. So maybe the game just rounds that up to 326. 400*0.815 = 326.

Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:59 am
by etternDS
sumail wrote:Okay so with Arcane Instability I was getting 469 average damage. So 469/1.03 = ~455.


The average base damage (0 SP) is wrong tho according to the Frostbolt tooltip in game (I get the same result as you do). It should be 446,5 ( [429+464]/2 ) with no talents. Would be nice if we could get a clarification from GM where that extra damage is coming from. I suspect Frostbolt rank 10 have a different spellrange on server side, than what it says in tooltip.

Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:01 am
by etternDS
And no, I have not done any testing on beasts (Troll racial)

Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:34 am
by sheepstickss
I noticed there's theorycrafting going on here so I thought I could add in the guide I wrote a few months ago:

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How to calculate your CRIT value:

Your frost bolt does 456 avg dmg. (not the 446 its supposed to be, don't know why)
A solid preraid set of gear gives you spellpower of 400.
Full Raid consumes of +86 spellpower. (36 from Brilliant Wizard Oil and 35 Greater Arcane Elixir and 15 Elixir of Frost Power)
Frostbolt's spellpower coefficient is .814 (3/3.5 = .857 then .857*.95 = .814)
3/3.5 = cast time
5% reduction is because it has a slowing effect.
A few things we can ignore since we're trying to find equal values between crit and spellpower.

456 + (.814 coefficient * 486) = 852 dmg per frostbolt.
1% crit would over a long average be equal to 1% more damage per frost bolt. 852*.01 = 8.52 dmg.
8.52 / (spell coefficent = .814) = 10.46 Spellpower.

At this gear level 10.46 spellpower would be equal to 1% crit, and that would be the ratio you tradeoff your items for max theoretical DPS.

Now lets say you have better gear at a level of 450 Spellpower. +86 from Raid consumables.
1% crit = 10.96 SP

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How to value HIT:
You can't go above 16% hit (you get 6% from talents)

For spells, it is a 2 table roll. First the server rolls to see if you hit, then if you successfully landed your spell; it checks if you made a crit.

So 1 hit again, like crit adds 1% more damage per frostbolt in the long average, however this hit can cause a crit.
So a hit that would of missed, but this 1% hit changed it into successfully landing, this successful hit may now crit. So we need to take crit chance into calculation.

So 1 hit = [1% dmg of your frost bolt * your crit chance (5% base ~5% from gear 3% talents 10% WC = 23%)] / spell coefficient (.814)
OR 1 hit = [SP value of crit] * crit chance.

Gear: 400 SP +86 (from consumables) = 486.
852 dmg per frostbolt.
[8.52/.814 = 10.46] * 1.23 = 12.86 SP

At this gear level 12.86 spellpower would be equal to 1% hit, and that would be the ratio you tradeoff your items for max theoretical DPS.

Spellpower level: 450+86 = 536 SP
1% hit = 13.48 SP

The more spellpower you have, the more each crit and hit is worth.
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So you make tradeoffs on your items until you find your max DPS combination. If you want an item that is +15 sp OR 1% crit? You go with the 15 sp.
You want 8 sp OR 1 % hit? You go with the 1% hit.

Good luck!


I'm a huge theorycrafter so I was pretty excited by all this and looked through everything in this post

Now to look at some points i've seen through the thread:
Average frostbolt damage is 456. Not the 446 it is supposed to be - something server side they will fix eventually I'd guess. (Theorycraft says 486 but that is wrong)
Frostbolt coefficient is indeed ~.814

Looking through sumail's post I see that he varies his crit and hit ratio depending on how much he already has? For example .84/.83 (1% vs 0% hit) and .99/.98 ( 16 vs 15 hit), same for crit. When looking at equivalencies it doesn't work like that, you aren't looking to see by how much % it improves by, but by absolute #'s. A 1% hit increase from 1->2 is the same as 15->16. Getting more and more crit or hit shouldn't devalue the next one.
You put alot of work into it and took me a while to go through it (thankfully you put in end equations so I was able to skip some parts I didn't understand) I actually was able to fix one of my guide's problems by looking through yours :)
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Edit: Thanks guys for the explanations! I'll be looking to fixup my stuff.

Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:47 pm
by Lazermon
getting more hit (or crit) devalues the next one in the sense that other stats become more and more valuable. It's a very tiny difference, but in the end it does matter. Since we like to compare hit with spellpower, we say that 1 hit is worth a tiny bit less spellpower the more hit you get, but whats in reality happening, ofcourse, is that all of your spellpower is worth a tiny bit more the more hit you get (which is the same thing).

Maybe I missed your point, sorry if I did.

Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:38 am
by sumail
Yeah I agree with Lazermon's explanation.

Basically the more crit you have the more impact your spellpower can make since it is multiplied by 2 everytime you crit. Same argument with hit since you are getting less resists your spellpower can have more of an impact.

If you look at having 1% crit vs 99% crit assuming 100% chance to hit your damage will look something like:

DMG @ 1% crit:
DMG = 0.99*X + 0.01*2*X

DMG @ 99% crit:
DMG = 0.01*X + 0.99*2*X

To make things simple we'll say X just our spellpower. Simplifying the equation a bit we get:

DMG @ 1% crit:
DMG = 1.01X

DMG @ 99% crit:
DMG = 1.99X

So our damage scales by 1.01 with spellpower at 1% crit but 1.99 at 99% crit. Essentially you get a lot more by increasing spellpower at 99% crit than you do at 1% crit.

I think we agree that the more spellpower you have the more you get out of increasing crit/hit. It's the same way with increasing crit/hit. You get more out of your spellpower the higher your crit/hit becomes. That's why continuously increasing crit/hit has this diminishing values with spellpower in terms of equivalency. If we looked at an equivalency with spellpower -> crit we'd see that increasing our spellpower has a diminishing value with crit as well (ie if you keep increasing spellpower crit becomes worth more and more).

I hope this helps further explain my reasoning.

Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:14 pm
by wuvluv
What's the best gear without PVP gear in those slots (both pre-raid and BIS)? I think it would be helpful to list those items.

Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:39 am
by Lazermon
This thread is for the Best in Slot, it is not a guide to what items you should farm before you jump into a raid, or what items to get when you are unable to get the best thing. I recommend asking your guild if you are unsure of what items you should be looking to acquire.

Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:08 am
by furier
I dont think wuvluv's suggestion is a bad one, some people may not want to PvP, I know you have listed honorable mentions tho, maybe that is enough.

Re: The BiS for the current content (updated for 1.7 and ZG!

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:40 am
by ejthemovie
Just curious as to the Value of Warlord's Shoulders for Mages, according to Theorycraft on bosses with 140 Resistance to Fire/Frost - 75 from CoE, the 10 spell pen should be equivelant to approx 27 spellpower in my gear. Wondering how the values work @Lazermon or anybody else competent enough to answer this question.