shit fucking mages need to stop opening with improved cs

[bethrezenn]

BIGETACTICS

http://i.imgur.com/G3IEkpC.jpg -> http://imgur.com/pI0GdIF -> http://imgur.com/epZnZBR

[Zygoth]

have you no honor mate?

If you're looking for 1 v 1 fights, team battlegrounds aren't really the place to find them. If you're alone and you see 3 guys running after you, then run away and do something that might benefit your team more than throwing yourself into big groups of people and constantly dying on the road.

[killuminati]

You can fake cast poly and get counterspelled much less often. Or if you prefer to start with the fireball/frostbolt route and happen to get counterspelled, then you can poly. If you open with counterspell then the mage can just iceblock your proceeding fireball, then they're free to poly you with 100% health. I'm not saying that opening with counterspell never works...it just isn't optimal. If you're going to use it strictly for the silence affect, then you're better off doing it in the middle of the fight. If you can open with a poly, then you get to fireball + fireblast them while they aren't doing anything to you, then you can silence them if you want and get another free fireball....just seems to make more sense to me.

Both your first assumptions don't take into account the application of a four second silence. If a mage were to get counterspelled in the midst of an opening Fireball/Frostbolt a four second silence is likely to be applied, which probably means that mage would either be polymorphed themselves or get lit up while silenced. I much prefer being the one who does the lighting up.

I've actually yet to run into a mage who has Ice Blocked out of an opening counterspell silence. They'd have to be pretty desperate to show off (tryhard) to pop an early Ice Block 1v1 in a Battleground unless there was a real purpose to it i.e. defending a flag in AB. Even then, I imagine it more practical to save it.

Vanilla is different from the expansions. I have virtually no experience beyond Burning Crusade. I can attest that four seconds is a very long time in Vanilla PvP especially as a fire mage. A lot of damage can both be done and taken in that time.

[Zygoth]

Both your first assumptions don't take into account the application of a four second silence. If a mage were to get counterspelled in the midst of an opening Fireball/Frostbolt a four second silence is likely to be applied, which probably means that mage would either be polymorphed themselves or get lit up while silenced. I much prefer being the one who does the lighting up.

If all of the mages that you fight have specced imp cs, you don't have iceblock, and you didn't get a chance to throw up fireward/frostward + icebarrier before this happened, then you are correct.

I've actually yet to run into a mage who has Ice Blocked out of an opening counterspell silence. They'd have to be pretty desperate to show off (tryhard) to pop an early Ice Block 1v1 in a Battleground unless there was a real purpose to it i.e. defending a flag in AB. Even then, I imagine it more practical to save it.

Ice Block removes any debuffs and prevents all damage while it is active. If you have received a debuff that leaves you unable to do anything, and you're fixing to receive a shit ton of damage that will probably cost you the fight...doesn't it make sense to use your ability that both removes that debuff and blocks the shit ton of damage? It seems sort of like the type of situation that Ice Block was designed for. If not a situation like that, then what type of situation would you be saving Ice Block for? Surely you're not one of those mages that waits till he's fixing to die, then throws up Ice Block to delay his death for another 10 seconds.

I don't know what's desperate or show-offish about using Ice Block to win a fight. It's not exactly the same thing as when a warrior charges somebody and immediately pops Retaliation in a 1 v 1 fight. What you're saying is akin to calling a rogue a desperate showoff for popping vanish to get out of a frost nova. Ice Block can be used 5 times over 10 minutes, so it's not really something that you need to sit on all day. It is usually up when I need it. But even if it's not up when I need it, what's the difference between dying due to my Ice Block being on cooldown and dying because I refused to use Ice Block when it was available?

[killuminati]

All mages I've fought have had a variety of strategies and been in a variety of situations. I've not experienced one size fits all fights. However, I have no problem blowing through an Ice Barrier and then some in four seconds and yes, I'm a huge proponent of getting control of a fight right off the bat and make no apologies for that. I don't have a 100% win rate against other mages 1v1 and don't claim to, but I will always angle to get control from the get go.

I do think popping Ice Block to evade an opening silence is pretty dumb and I've yet to notice anyone do it.

Suggesting that others do so is in a way acknowledging the effectiveness of opening with a four second silence. I don't typically find myself needing to pop 3-5 min CDs 1v1 against other mages, but I suppose for every that doesn't, there must be one who does. And if I did, it sure wouldn't be to evade a silence when I'm at full health! But you are correct - Ice Block does render anything counterspell.. fireball.. frostbolt.. polymorph.. anything ineffective.

I'm not going to get into a diatribe on Ice Block and when to use it. Suffice to say, I imagine that 3 to 5min+ CDs are best saved for critical situations rather than being used as crutches - and I'm probably in the minority on this. I never use them in duels, but most players nowadays seem to. More power to them.


If you wish to continue debating the premise that opening with counterspell silence is ineffective, you are free to, but I imagine the discussion has resolved itself at this point and I feel like I'm wasting my time.

[Zygoth]

But by repeatedly asserting that one shouldn't use Ice Block at the beginning of a fight, you *are* getting into the diatribe on Ice Block and when to use it. You keep saying it's dumb to do and should be saved, but you won't give an example of what would be considered an acceptable use of it. For whatever reason, it's reasonable to you to blow your one counterspell of the fight right at the beginning, yet Ice Block should be saved.

If somebody is fixing to blow you up and take away half your health or more, and it will probably decide the fight in your opponent's favor, then that counts as a crisis situation in my book. If you've managed to get into a 1 v 1 fight in a battleground, then it probably means that you're either defending a node/flag or taking one. In either situation, I don't consider death to be acceptable. That being the case, if you've got a tool that could easily save your life and turn the fight in your favor, why would it be dumb to take advantage of that? If you lost the node you were guarding, and it ultimately cost you the AB, would you want to explain to your team that the reason you lost the node is because you didn't want to look like a "showoff" and use your Ice Block?

I also don't recall saying that opening with counterspell silence is ineffective. If your opponent chooses not to react to it appropriately (because it would apparently be dumb and show-offish), it can be quite devastating. What I said is that the OP should be able to beat mages that do it. It's an easy tactic to defend against, and it leaves the user wide open afterward. Probably at least 90% of the mages on this server have Ice Block, so at least 90% of the mages on this server can defeat your tactic.

Aside from that, even if your opponent doesn't Ice Block, it is still optimal to try to use your silence mid fight and guarantee that you finish your opponent off. If you have Shatter, it's also really good to use your silence to lock your opponent inside a frost nova, so you can blow them up with some big crits. What happens when you open with cs, get them to half health, then they sheep you, bandage up, and then get to restart the fight with *you* at half health? Once again...I'm not saying that opening with cs is ineffective. I'm just saying that it's easy to counter that tactic, and their are potentially better ways to use it. Maybe your tactic will work 100% of the time. However, it's because your opponents are too incompetent to deal with the situation, or they're afraid of being ridiculed for being dumb, show-offish tryhards...not because your tactic is 100% effective.

I may just be an overachiever or something, but I just wouldn't want to put all of my chips on a tactic that is easy to counter (and makes suboptimal use of one of my important spells) simply because it works well against noobs. If you're fighting a noob hunter, you probably can beat him just by running on top of him, using cone of cold on cooldown, and spamming arcane explosion while jumping around like a crazy person...but there's a better way to go about it, so I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I'm not discussing this to try to prove that I'm right. I'm doing it to have you explain why I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not right, and this discussion could be a learning experience for me. Unfortunately, your only response, in a nutshell, is that it's dumb to try to win a fight if it requires that you use a cooldown that exceeds 30 seconds, and that if you absolutely must use a cooldown that exceeds 30 seconds, you shouldn't do it to prevent the impending loss of half your health (rather, you should do it at some other time in which you refuse to describe).

[stimz]

BIGETACTICS

http://i.imgur.com/G3IEkpC.jpg -> http://imgur.com/pI0GdIF -> http://imgur.com/epZnZBR

hahahhahaha

[disturpants]

Sounds like he's doing what he needs to do to win...

Maybe he knows he sucks so needs to tip the balance in his favour.

Either way, he stopped you capping a Base, so he's doing it right.

have you no honor mate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0wa0W13yw

[hunger]

BIGETACTICS

http://i.imgur.com/G3IEkpC.jpg -> http://imgur.com/pI0GdIF -> http://imgur.com/epZnZBR

uden for real ..? pussy much

[Xaeminos]

mages always opened with this...

No they didn't. That's a terrible way to open.